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the question is ghoulish, and a diversion from DOING SOMETHING NOW TO HELP THESE PEOPLE.

More to the point, I don’t think either Hastert, or Jarvis, are going to get to decide.

I have to agree with daudder. Getting the water out of New Orleans, rescuing those who need immediate attention, feeding and sheltering those currently left homeless, and cracking down on the gangs roaming the city should take priority over everything and anything else, including debating the future of this city, and ESPECIALLY including trying to score political points.

It doesn’t make sense to me why we can’t supply victims with proper care.

And your talking rebuilding.

I hope everyone remembers this, when the history books look back at this Republican Congress and Administration.

Alot of Republicans around here are saying they will.

Ravo, it’s tacky and disrespectful, that’s why.

I agree with most everyone here. This is not the time to debate these issues. Like I said on another thread, they haven’t even finished the rescue effort nor started collecting the dead bodies and idiot politicians and pundits are debating about rebuilding the city. Stop with the commentary about issues that can wait and start helping with the relief effort.

I know this point was made already, but really, ask yourself how you would have felt if someone came up to you while they were still rescuing people from the World Trade Center: So do you think we should rebuild the towers? There is too much emotion right now to give that answer the careful consideration it deserves.

As I sit in front of my TV watching various new repoorts on the events in MI and LA I sewe all these in interviews with people such as the head of FEMA, etc.
If it were me, i’d tell the press that I have better things to do then answer repetative questions that I really don’t know the answer to. The amount of interview these officials are doing is a little rediculous. Instead of spending the time going on all the networks they could be directing their efforts towards the relief effort.

Since the Homeland Security department is “in charge” there should be perhaps 1 or 2 briefings a day to give updates on what the Governement is doing. No questions. Get the information out and get back to work.

Well the priority is to get the people out, and find and bury the dead. Who knows how many more hurricanes will strike N.O. this year and next? Florida got 4 last year. First reconstruction should be the infrastructure. Port, Oil, Electric, Interstates, etc. That will take a year at least. Some businesses will set up and some basic services will be offered. The city will come along as people want it to. The more people that move back the larger it will get. I suspect many will never return, they’ll take their insurance money and try and relocate. There should be no rush to rebuild the city. It would be criminal to rebuild any part below sea level again.

This is, of course, the wrong time to be talking about this. Everyone’s attention should be on saving lives and securing safety. However, I though John Breaux (D-LA) had a proper answer, “That’s like saying we should shut down Los Angeles because it’s built in an earthquake zone. Or like saying that after the Great Chicago fire of 1871, the U.S. government should have just abandoned the city.” Would anyone have dared utter abandoning the WTC site? I don’t think so.

Link to article: http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_09.html#075833

Oh, stop weeping you emotional slobs. It’s a good question. Should we rebuild (and pay for) something that’s below sea level and has been subjected to flloding and devistating hurricanes a number of times? When Chicago burned is spawned buildings with fireproof materials. We could do that. When San Francisco fell it created new earthquake-resistant building codes. We could do that. Are we going going to raise New Orleans above sea level or are we going to create (and can we afford to create) a monsterous cat-4 hurricane-proof (the levees were built to withstand cat 3) flood control system that will keep New Orleans dry? Can we do that? Forget how you “feel” about it. (People are getting help regardless of your feelings) It’s a good question. Someone has to ask it.

As Atrios asked on his site:

Why is rebuilding Iraq more worthy of our tax dollars than rebuilding New Orleans?

………………………………………………………………………………………………….

“How can we have invaded Iraq without a plan for the aftermath?! It’s criminally responsible not to have planned for what we should do after the fighting!”

“How dare you say we should have concentrated on anything but keeping our soldiers from being killed in the initial operations?!”

Stupid line of argument, guys.

New Orleans isn’t over. Regardless of federal intervention, private insurers will pay off a lot of damages, some of which will go to people who will rebuild there because they want to live there. The city will change, almost without a doubt, but it’s not like we’re going to entomb the remains or anything.

Now, if you’re asking “should we subsidize insurance premiums for people to live in high-risk areas”, the answer is probably not. If you make it cheaper for people to live in a high-risk area without penalty, you’re changing their risk-taking calculus in a way that will encourage them to live in more risky areas.

The third question is, should you resettle New Orleans residents who have lost everything? Tougher – it’s not nice to say, “Well, if you don’t want to move away, you’ll just have to be destitute on your own,” but at the same time, NO isn’t going to recover for many many months yet.

Oh, Piffle with that race and politics crap!

However, as a practical matter, I disagree with Hastert and any number of commenters for this simple reason: Look at the map.

Where is New Orleans? New Orleans is at the mouth of the mississippi. Been there since long before the United States was the United States. Why did anyone build a city at the mouth of the mississippi on the Gulf of Mexico? Follow the Mississippi through the middle of the United States.

What is the Mississippi used for? Shipping of goods and products. It is one of the largest, natural transportation routes in this country if not the world. The largest Port in the United States. It is not only economically strategic, but also strategic in case of war directed at our shores or in case some other disaster (like hurricanes, tsunamis, etc) destroys another port.

We will rebuild NO because it has a purpose that is beyond the levees and the people that live there. it is vital to the security (economically and physically) of the US. Discussions otherwise are simply foolish.

I do believe that another intelligent poster commented on what will be the reality: lessons learned will mean new engineering and a new city.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

I went to college in NOLA 30 years ago and enjoyed both the city and other parts of the state. I am not anti democrat/Negro/poorpeople. But the fact is that there shouldn’t be a city by the coast that is below sea level, any more than there should be fancy expensive vacations homes on beaches that get hit by hurricanes often. Neither situation is prudent.

New Orleans has been where it is a long time and people have been worried about “the big one” a long time. This didn’t just come up and it’s not just the fault of the current crop of politicians and officials (local & federal). Inertia and denial are the primary players here just like it is along the New Madrid fault, parts of California, and numerous beachfront communities.

With the city so thoroughly destroyed, rebuilt housing stock should not be allowed below sea, river, or lake level. I own a rental property that is the lowest point for several blocks around and its basement (with its washer/dryer, HVAC, water heaters) floods or threatens to flood several times each year. After trying to work with multiple sump pumps (including battery-powered backups) and every other “solution,” it’s become clear that only removing those valuable & necessary components from the basement is the only reasonable choice.

Same goes for only rebuilding New Orleans on land that has been raised above sea/river/lake level or not rebuilding at all. Insisting on rebuilding in a dangerous area is emotionally driven and is not rational. Recognizing that has nothing to do with politics, racism, socio-cultural conditions, or anything else. It’s only being reasonable.

Here’s what a genuine NewOrleans guy has to say to Hastert:
‘I did want to take the time to tell Dennis Hastert that he can go to hell. New Orleans WILL rebuild. I don’t care if it is a little toxic… that’s what rain is for. It’s not just a matter of the pride of a city. It’s a matter of NATIONAL pride — in a far more unified way than Iraq ever could be. New Orleans will not be done “on the cheap” if I or my 250,000,000 friends have anything to say about it.’

http://www.livejournal.com/users/insomnia/599039.html

Imho supporting all rebuild efforts is what the repubs are owing the city and people of New Orleans after the Bush administration s***ed up the flood prevention measures.

‘building on a floodplain is folly, and that’s exactly what New Orleans did. ‘
You tell that the dutch people. Most of their country is below sealevel since centuries. Last real desaster was in ’53, since then they have modernized their flood prevention. The Bush administration slashed all fundes to update the levees, otherwise a desaster of this scale could have been prevented.

California dreamer:

For everybody asshat on the right saying “its their own damn fault for living in New Orleans” I can point to three asshats on the left saying “its their own damn fault for voting for Bush.” Moreover I believe it is wholly inappropriate and extremely tasteless to be trying to score political points so soon after this disaster. Before you pop off so rightously, dig into your pocket and give money to relief agencies and, if possible, donate time to coordinating relief efforts. Then, when the job is done, bitch all you want. But I’m really not interested in hearing ANYBODY’s Monday morning quarterbacking right now.

I have just been reading the responses on this site and got to Ronnie’s. I just have to say YESSSSSSSSSSS. Finally someone with some intelect. You make alot of sense and I hope with all my heart things go well for you.

It was a great town. I was just there 6 months ago. I’m so fortunate to have seen and experienced it’s uniqueness, before it was all destroyed. Proves we are all but fleas on the back of this dog called Mother Earth.

I think its a very sad day for America for those questioning whether New Orleans should be rebuilt. For every natural disaster that has occured in this country we have rebuilt. Cities destroyed in California due to earthquakes were rebuilt. From Florida up the coast in both directions, beachfront properties and towns destroyed by storms and hurricanes were always rebuilt. The Great Chicago fire that destroyed the city, wildfires out west that demolish small towns and multi-million dollar homes have been rebuilt. The world trade center will be replaced with a new skyscraper. Towns and sities ravaged from the the Civil War to our Revolution to Pearl Harbor. The day America decides to gives up hope to rebuild, regrow and flourish in its own backyard, will be also be a sad day for the world. America has never given hope no matter what the circumstances, for if we have, we would have a lot of towns and cities across this great land sitting desolate in ruins, America has stood strong and rebuilt for every attack on this free land, whether it was nature of man. Keep America strong, for centuries, we have rebuilt this nation over and over, and made it stronger and stronger. How can we rebuild other parts or the world if we cant even save our own people in our own backyard. Please do not coward to fear. Stay strong America. From Japan’s destruction to Germany’s destruction to the ups/downs in exploring new frontiers of space. Americans have all shared in rebuilding of our country and the world with there hard earned working money and taxes, while all the doomsdayers said to give it up, we never have, and now sure is the time not too!!! New Orleans is a Great American City. WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMEN/WOMEN !!

We have all seen those interviews on the ground in Florida or North Carolina or (now) Louisiana where people defiantly say that they will rebuild. Haven’t you ever thought to yourself, why the hell would you do that? Roll the dice and see if your house and all of your possessions can be smashed again? Maybe even lose your life?

Building your home (or a city) on sand, on a shoreline, on an island, below sea level, near a faultline, near a volcano, or on a steep slope is just not an intelligent idea. Sure, you may go an entire lifetime without incident, but if you don’t, and then you decide to stay in the same place, then don’t be surprised if a little natural selection takes place.

Not only that, but saying what I just said is absolutely fine. Oh, the PC crowd probably won’t like it, as if stating something that obvious is in some way offensive. Not only is it okay to question the wisdom of building in such a place, it is also okay to do so while the honorable task of saving and assisting those people takes place. Maybe, just maybe, someone down there will hear it, and decide to move someplace safer instead of getting themselves killed the next time around.

Rebuilding for the sake of rebuilding alone is not smart. Saying we should not talk about it now is diversionary – even when everyone is out of there, people will still say we shouldn’t talk about it, because it is too judgemental for their taste.

So, go ahead and rebuild! You have that freedom, just like I have the freedom to say what I think about it. Just don’t expect too much sympathy when it all happens again and again.

TJ

Sorry, Dion, but it’s not smart to keep on doing something just because we’ve always done it that way.

Good points, Top Jimmy! Thanks!

Let’s see. New Orleans is about 100 square miles that needs to be raised about an average of 18 feet. The cost of commercial fill is about $2 a cubic yard delivered in bulk. That is about 5 billion dollars (3 Billion to Halliburton just to grease the sled). New 10 foot concrete pillings will be about $50,000 per house (250,000 houses) or about 13 billion to get everyone 20 foot above sea level and provide incredible amount of new off street parking below the houses and businesses. The city can bond 5 billion to create all new underground utilities including communications. Tax revenue from a new double wide Bourbon Street and enhanced tourist attraction will easily pay the 250 million bond debt interest. The fed will have to pick up the I-10 hurricane improvements at 2 billion. Private insurance can pick up the 26 billion to rebuild every house to cat 5 standard at an average $100,000 per house. The state, city, and fed can share the 20 billion cost to rebuild the roads and create a beautiful system of canals that make every home and project house a waterfront or waterview property, provide boat access for everyone to Lake Pontchartrain and the gulf, and permanently eliminate the threat of flooding from rain or hurricane. Boat sales will go through the roof. Reconstrtuction jobs will be plentiful. Income will go up. Poverty will go down. Business will flock in. New Orleans will be rocking like never before. There will even be a downtown gondolier business. The average homeowner can sell out for 3/4 million dollars and move elsewhere or enjoy living in the most modern and beautiful city in the world. Homeowners will have to chip in if they they want to upgrade but there will be plenty of good jobs to allow that. Throw in 14 billion fed money to fix the delta. The total cost to local, state, and fed to create the finest seaside city in the world is less than 100 billion. Private donations can pay to raise historical structures and the French Quarter. In ten years we could redo 9 other seaside cities which all suffer from subsidence. The economic impact of all that infrastructure investment might restore Wall Street and balance the budget. Or we can drop those same trillion bucks in Iraq for more “security.” Charity begins at home. We just need imaginative local, state, and federal leadership, not leadership that can’t imagine anything. Now what is really going to happen is that the fed is going to blow 100 billion to patch up the city and leave it in the same mess it is in now!

take the politics out of it. is it the time to inquire as to rebuilding ? it MUST be addressed asap. this is one of the most important ports in the world. the question should not be where or when to rebuild but how to rebuild and how do we make it safe. since the dawn of man we have placed ourselves in harms way and we will continue to do so due to commerce and trade. we know that in reality there is NO safe place on the mississippi.we saw this years ago in the massive floods. new orleans will not be moved in any direction but up. i’ve read opinion after opinion concerning flood remedies such as floating houses or filling in the bowl of this city with dirt. but we are not looking at just houses. we are looking at huge buildings that house some of the largest corporations in the world. the way i see it, the city must be pumped dry, bulldozed and burned. then you can start the task of errecting the pylons that will be needed to carry the weight of a honeycomb foundation that you can build your city upon at a height of 25 – 30 feet above sea level. expensive ? Yes ! but either way it will cost hundreds of billions of dollars to relocate the city or fill in the bowl which will still feel the errosion of the river and lake. the city must be elevated to a safe height. do it right…do it once…no more worries.

I agree that we do need to know the final objective to begin the enormous project of rebuilding, but let’s not get crazy. The French Quarter and the CBD had minimal damage, leave it alone. Higher elevation neighborhoods should be left as legacy neighborhoods, permitted to remain with levees placed to give them moderate protection. The lower sections of the city should be purchased and created into a huge park, zoo, and other recreation facilities over which the new transit system would run bringing people into the old city from new planned communities on higher ground outside the old boundries. Top it off by building to host the olympics in 2012. Why not start exploring the ideas of a low fuel, mass transport. green city here, make the developments dense, mixed income, with all the neccessary neighborhood amenities within walking distance, centered around transit hubs. We have an opportunity to build the model sustainable city, let’s do it.

SOLUTIONS
A wise person once said “For every problem there is a solution.”

Since we are heading in this direction, with the deterioration of fossil fuel. We need to insert ideas of energy saving solutions, for the entire area of destruction, which we need to rebuild.
When the rest of the country begins to enter the crisis mode, and there will be, we will have the perfect model of existence to build our own commuities on.
Now with that said, let all wise persons proceed.

The reality of this great loss is that most of the population does not have the economic ability to wait 9 months to move back home. Any rebuilding will take 12 to 18 months to complete at best. The majority of the pre-disaster population is not going home.

Businesses are not going to wait 12 to 14 months to go home either. I believe that the city will be rebuilt but it will be 30% of its original size.

As a refugee from New Orleans currently sheltering in Baton Rouge, I’ve got a few thoughts. Most importantly, New Orleans CAN be made safe IF Federal resources are applied. Levees can be raised to withstand Cat 5 storms (Nola’s levees were built to hold up against Cat 3’s – Katrina was a Cat 4). The city can be further partitioned into sections with internal levees, which would act like watertight compartments on ships, isolating flooded sectors but leaving remaining areas dry. The final key to safety involves investing in the eroding wetlands surrounding the city and buffering it from the open waters of the Gulf of Mexico. Remember that, for New Orleans, the danger is not so much wind as it is water. Much like the Thames River barrier in England, the seaward entrance to Lake Pontchartrain (the Rigolets & Chef Menteur passes) can be barricaded to stop a storm surge. Indeed, such a project was proposed in the aftermath of Hurricane Betsy (1965), but was quashed for some reason. Nixon budget cuts perhaps? The cost will be great, but, as Kat mentions above, it could well be peanuts compared with the cost of completely reprogramming our nation’s infrastructure as a consequence of abandoning New Orleans’ port, sited near the mouth of the river system which drains (and provides commercial access to) one-third of our nation’s lower-48 land area. Remember, too that while New Orleans itself has (or had) just under 500,000 inhabitants, the metro area – no higher in elevation and no less vulnerable to levee collapses – comprises over 1.3 million residents. That’s a lot of people to move wholesale. As others have noted, global warming, rising sea levels and the capricious course of the Mississippi River are other perils, but a careful combination of engineering and wetland regeneration can probably effectively combat this. Indeed, New Orleans could serve as a technological testing ground, as cities like New York, Singapore and London are not so far above sea level in many places that they wouldn’t be affected in short order by the same sea level trends.

I too am alternately saddened and enraged by the behavior of what is, TO BE SURE, a small minority of the city’s poor. And I do think that a careful distinction needs to be made between those taking necessities and those stealing plasma-screen TVs or carjacking their neighbors. Nonetheless, these scenes will surely pose an enormous stumbling block to attracting new investment. However, maybe New Orleans will emerge from Katrina’s trials with far less poverty, the breeding ground for the depravity that the nation witnessed. One effect of this storm could be a demographic reshaping of the city. Tens of thousands of poor New Orleanians have been evacuated to the more vigorous economic climate of Houston, Dallas, etc. Let them better themselves; their chances will certainly be better there. For arguably more than 100 years, New Orleans has been caught in a vicious bind, the chicken-and-egg paradox at its most vivid: the city fails to attract sufficient investment because of its crushing poverty and consequent social ills, but poverty cannot be ameliorated without sufficient investment. Perhaps that cycle will now be broken. On a more micro level, the city itself has been recently mired in a cycle of vigilante killings and retribution killings; that cycle has obviously been disrupted, and the opportunity exists to quash it for good.

Visionary urban design could induce, if not private insurers, than perhaps federal and state agencies to write flood insurance for a rebuilt New Orleans. The city’s geography is simple, but musn’t be over-simplified. Areas along the river, and extending back from its banks for 1/2-1 mile are ABOVE sea level. Also above sea level are the parks and neighborhoods reclaimed in the 1920s from Lake Pontchartrain at the northernmost boundary of the city. BECAUSE of this geography, unsurprisingly, practically all of the city’s historic built environment lies within the former zone (i.e., near the river). Look at the maps of the areas flooded for confirmation. Not only the French Quarter was spared. This historic swath of the city contains perhaps 100,000 residents and possesses mile after mile of stunning architecture and beautiful boulevards, still there – and dry – according to the satellite photos I’ve examined. Much of the rest of the city could be rebuilt as a marvel of sensitive eco-design: houses on tall piers/neighborhoods of marshy preserves teeming with life and interlaced with canals, internal levees (mentioned earlier) topped with bike paths, etc.

I’ll leave the cultural rhapsodizing to others; many can do it beautifully, and I agree with their sentiments wholeheartedly. Remember, though, that in a nation where everywhere seems to be looking increasingly like everywhere else, there is one soulful, special place. It is not destroyed, only parts of it are. And the best bits remain. And I am determined to return.

GISMAN, you are a moron!

The St. Charles Av. streetcar line is the oldest continuously operating rail line in the country. It began in the 1830′s with tiny steam locomotives. The line was converted to electricity as I recall in the late 1800′s. The cars which have been operating were built by the Obscure Perley Thomas company of Northy Carolina. Many of these cars have been operating from the mid 1920′s forward. Much of the line is in neutral ground except for the downtown area. I hope this has been saved.
I should imagine that the Riverside line probably has not been saved. The brand new restoration of the Canal St. line (began last year after an absence of 40 years) surely was underwater and the home built stareetcars were likely under water. I’m not sure what will be done with this line. There is money in the new transportation bill to build the Desire line. But it may never be built.
When we think of New Orleans we must think of its rich streetcar heritage.

Surely we will not rebuild it as it was! If we cannot learn from our mistakes, we deserve what we get. There will not be enough money to keep rebuilding over and over the same places ravaged by hurricanes, etc. WE MUST BUILD SMART THIS TIME!
We must not waste our dwindling resources! I get a vote, because it is my tax money that will pay for this rebuilding, and my insurance rates that keep going up to pay for others who live on the coast. Many of us cannot afford that!
The low areas must be done differently, on pilings, as with beach houses in many places is one answer. The Dutch have some answers. And, it must be built to withstand much stronger winds. OK, make it the tourist trap it was again, but not in a way that we all pay again the next time they get hit. WE CANNOT AFORD TO KEEP REBUILDING over and over and over. The Big Easy is too easy when it comes to taking care of infrastructure and their poor. And too corrupt. I lived there; I know.

Did we not learn as little kids: “The foolish man builds his house upon the sands; the wise man builds his house upon the rock.” And, the 3 Little Pigs learned it has to be brick and strong. “It’s elementary, my dear Watson.”

This is not Rocket Science. Wake up, America. In an age of Terrorists, we cannot now afford to be the Big Spenders we are used to being. We can’t just keep rebuilding NYC, New Orleans, and whatever city goes down over and over. WE Gotta Start Playing It Smart. Or, it will be like “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire” for us, right here in the USA.

katrina was devistating there is no doubt about that. there is also no doubt that it WILL happen again. maybe not this decade or the next , but it will happen again. Keeping the natural water level at bay is a contant battle that has to be won at all times. why fight a battle when you dont have to. why not rebuild new orleans so the water level is at the normal stage that it wants to be at.
my proposal is to rebuild new orleans like a modern day venice. actually design it so it is to be flooded on purpose. the technology is here today right now. Venice Italy has been underwater for hundreds of years because it is sinking into the soft soil of the surrounding wetlands. just like New Orleans. they like new orleans did start above the flood stage but sank into it. we have the knowledge to rebuild the whole city upon a floating slab that is designed to be partially flooded. we have the singular opportunity to start from the ground up so that the problems of Venice arent the problems of New orleans.
if new orleans is to be rebuilt on the current site, 1 the sinking needs to be halted. which would be a big job but not an impossible one. 2 flooding danger would have to be minimized or removed. neither of which can be done if it rebuilt in the traditional mannor.

the first step is to relocate all the historic buildings that can be moved to temparary locations.
repair the levees to keep the water back while the work is being done
then to build big and i mean big foundation slabs on which the rest of the city will be built.
rebuild the buildings of new orleans with aquaducts and canals instead of streets.
final stage is to reflood the city…

The slabs will be deigned to float upon the soft soil of the delta and below the normal water line so the sinking will halt.. if the city is underwater to begin with then flooding danger is minimized or gone altogether. while storm surges will continue to be a threat , they will be easier to control than trying to hold the water back completly.
It would be a different new orleans than were used too thats for sure.
maybe a crazy idea , i dont know. i just think it would solve a fundamental problem that is bound to happen again.

A new voice heard! Old Ronnie is the only sensible voice I hear in all this Tumult! He was there on a rooftop with his son & a Cat! Didn’t hear him blame anybody in any Government nor did he bring up race either! What person thinks he is qualified to sit in an armchair and blame every one under the sun, or Cloud, for not doing anything right! Which one of you have been under the stress of the moment and have tried to get unlimbered only to fall on your face when a bunch see it different than you do?

Mutzell says most uv it! How come so many guys, or gals, hate our President so much, I been carryin a Democrat card in my back pocket and used it since I was old enough to vote! Am now 87 years young but, I never hated our President, After all, More people voted for him than the other fellow, Did’n they!

Tell you what hombres, The race is on by the powers that be to decide where the Moola is comin from to rebuild La,Ms,Al, or Texas! Who ya recon is gonna get tha most!

After seeing pics of the Galveston wall, It looks as if it has been purty neglected also! It shore was designed better than the NO wall as far as the cross section goes but, looks as if it could be undermined by the constant pounding of this booger headin for it now an the cross section will be useless then! We need ole Charlie to put his pencil to it and tell us what to do next!

i would like to take back my comment to gisman and readdress it to the real culpret: truth hurts. sorry for any confusion. i disagreed with the statements made about the blacks setting them selves up. that doesnt make any sense. did any body else notice that?

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