Where is the outrage? (continued)

Where is the outrage? (continued)

: Tom Friedman says we are not demanding outrage from Muslim leaders and the White House over Muslims murdering Muslims. I would add the press and the liberal establishment to his list of those who should be expressing outrage. And, yes, we need to express outrage — and surely will express outrage — at the same time about prisoner abuse that went beyond naked pictures or toilets to death in today’s Times report from Afghanistan.

“Look,” he says the White House (and others) should say, “Newsweek may have violated journalistic rules, but what jihadist terrorists are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan – blowing up innocent Muslims struggling to build an alternative society to dictatorship – surely destroys the Koran. They are the real enemies of Islam because they are depriving Muslims of a better future. From what I know of Islam, it teaches that you show reverence to God by showing reverence for his creations, not just his words. Why don’t your spiritual leaders say that?

  • http://RuthCalvo Ruth

    Where was his commentary on the May 14 demonstration in D.C. by Muslims against terrorism?

  • Kat

    Yes, all of 50 muslims fom across the US against terrorism gathered in a ‘massive’ march. Did you go Ruth? Were CAIR and all other muslim orgs there?
    I have no intention of respecting a koran until the day that muslims respect other religions. Till that happens, I will see the koran a nothing more than a terror manual, if muslims allow murder in its name. Next time just shred it as in this article.
    http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=\ForeignBureaus\archive\200505\FOR20050519a.html

  • Ptolemy

    Ruth, surely you wouldn’t paint all Muslims as being like that mere handful of 50 marchers in Washington. Such bigotry.

  • Angelos

    It’s an excellent point. Newsweek printed something based on allegations they had confirmed to the best of their knowledge. Their “source” in the government either screwed them intentionally, or backed down when he saw the results of his words. Nothing a correction wouldn’t fix in the next issue. But the real blame is on the zealots who riot and kill over a stupid BOOK! Hell, if these people could control themselves, no one would have even noticed.
    Kat, again and again you need to be reminded that ALL religions murder in the name of their god. That the Bible has as much violence as the Koran. And that it’s all nonsense anyway. Are you the poster child for Evangelical Winger Bigotry?

  • Ptolemy

    There are some savages in the Christian community but if you look over the world at Christian communities and how they act in different nations, you are not going to see the violence and the intimidation that Muslims everywhere present today. Nihilism isn’t going to solve this problem. Let the evil people/organizations be branded as such and get over self-esteem building for them by merging their actions into the typical category. A Chritian in Muslim Pakistan is not the problem a Muslim in the Christian Phillipines is.
    I see Islamic practice as bottoming-out right now and that it will rise up again and be able to live amongst others in the world. Pretending that there is nothing wrong now, however, only allows the evil to continue to flourish. Other communities don’t have the ability to fight like the US against abuse so don’t confuse the relative silence of Christians in oppressive situations as acceptance or even happiness. There is a reason why the Christian population of the Levant virtually disappeared when immigration became a strong option for them.

  • Gunther

    So the press and “liberal establishment” has a responsibility to come out and condemn Muslim on Muslim violence, but you yourself feel that it’s sufficient to give only a pro forma CYA acknowledgement of the sadistic practices of U.S. military forces as described by the NY Times? And where is the outrage, the condemnation by the American Christian establishment of these acts? For that matter, where is the criticism from the conservative polital establishment of these practices? Apparently Christian on Muslim atrocities aren’t expected to provoke the same sense of outrage that Muslim on Muslim ones do.

  • http://www.stevesilver.net Steve

    Where’s the outrage? EVERYWHERE. That’s all political discource is these days- outrage vs. more outrage.

  • Soldier’s Dad

    Will some sane person look at the dates of the accusations, look at the actual number of people involved. Look at the punishments of the people involved.
    Report the same event, by the same 5 people 200 times, that makes 1000 cases of abuse right?
    That makes the abuse systematic doesn’t it?
    Or is it the re-reporting 200 times of the same case what makes the abuse systematic?
    Would printing a “summary box” of all the abuse cases to date, along with disposition of those involved be too much to ask? Along with a sidebar of how many guards there are, how many prisoners detained and released. How many soldiers have served in either Iraq or Afghanistan?
    500,000 plus soldiers have served in Iraq, how many have stepped over some hypothetical line of ethical behavoir? 5,50,500,5000,50000?
    How many people have been detained…25,000..50,000..how many have been abused?
    Hitler believed in the “Perfect Race”
    How many people were exterminated?
    Stalin believed in the “Perfect Society”
    How many people went to “Re education camps”?
    Can anyone make the connection as to what happens when “Perfection” becomes the standard?
    All organizations are made up of imperfect humans. What happens when the standard that an organization must achieve is perfection?
    Does the organization start using the tactics of Hitler or Stalin? Does it have a choice?
    The press isn’t being beaten up because they made a mistake, it’s because they measure everyone against a standard of perfection, then demand destruction (resignation,firing,punishment) of people and organizations that are less than perfect.

  • http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

    Apples and oranges, Jeff. Apples and oranges.
    Remember when not so long ago you snarkily “podfisked” Bill Maher’s non sequitur defense of Ward Churchill–why then are you engaging in the same tactic here? Muslim on Muslim violence has absolutely nothing to do with *our* misdeeds in the War on Terror, unless you want to play a nasty game of moral equivalence, which I thought as the better party we were supposed to be above.
    While it’s all well and good to demand some introspection on the part of all involved parties in this war, you seem to have a dangerously naive faith in the power that moderate Muslims have over Islamist terrorists. Al-Qaeda doesn’t give a rat’s ass about mass demonstrations against terror or fatwas condemning Muslim on Muslim violence any more than an ultraorthodox Jewish settler cares what a Reformed Judaism rabbi in Connecticut has to say about the Israeli-Palestinian crisis. Jihadis by definition are committed to the cause of holy war, and with very few exceptions are you going to change their minds.
    Moderate Muslims are no more responsible for the actions of terrorists than Sunday-only Catholics were for John Salvi when he opened fire in an abortion clinic in Brookline, Mass. Did Tommy Friedman demand back then that Catholics as a whole were somehow to blame for that tragedy, even if there happened to exist a not-insignificant portion of Catholics who on some level tacitly approved of such a radical course of action? Of course not. But it’s so much easier to blame Muslims for their own problems, especially when those in power are looking for exculpation for their own offenses–historical and current–against the Arab and Islamic world.

  • Catherine

    Jersey Exile, great post. I’m sure Kat doesn’t know any Muslims or else she wouldn’t make such idiotic comments. All the Muslims I know are just as tolerant of my religion as I am of theirs. They don’t judge me as a horrible person undeserving of respect because my religion says that since they don’t believe in Jesus they are going to hell.
    Those Muslims, the moderate ones, have to be in a pretty tight place. I’m sure they resent the Al-Qaeda crazies who are giving their religion a bad name, to say the least. But I’m sure it’s also tempting for them to remain uneasily quiet in the face of violent outbursts because of the type of treatment and lack of understanding/respect people like Kat have shown them.
    Speaking of moderate Islam, I highly recommend Reza Aslan’s book about the rise of moderation in the Islamic world. He says that terrorism is the last desperate gasp of a dying fundamentalism in the Muslim world, and that we think it’s the beginning only because we haven’t been paying attention to Islam for the past 500 years. It’ll be interesting to see if it’s true. I certainly want to believe it.

  • http://www.lafn.org/~zeppenwolf zeppenwolf

    Angelos: Kat, again and again you need to be reminded that ALL religions murder in the name of their god.
    Oh, yeah! So many Buddhist suicide bombers in the news these days, so many Orthodox Jews flying planes into buildings, etc.
    That the Bible has as much violence as the Koran..
    Not even close, but that’s beside the point, twice removed. First, Christianity does not call on its followers to impose worldwide theocracy by lethal force if necessary, which Islam does. Second, and to the point, Christianity in 2005 does not have as much violence as Islam in 2005, not even in the wildest leftie dreamworld.
    Catherine: But I’m sure it’s also tempting for them [the invisible Muslim moderate] to remain uneasily quiet in the face of violent outbursts because of the type of treatment and lack of understanding/respect people like Kat have shown them.
    Oh, pity the poor moderate Muslims! They can’t possibly decry the systematic worldwide killing of infidels because people like Kat are posting on Jeff Jarvis’ site! Evil, intolerant Kat has the audacity to expect moderate Muslims to decry terrorism/honor killings/murderous riots based on an alleged flushing of a mass produced book/etc?
    Why, that’s “hate speech”, right?
    Talk about the “soft bigotry of low expectations”– you Professional Muslim Apologists take the prize.
    If “moderate Muslim” is defined as someone who will show up at a march decrying terrorism, then perhaps there are about fifty in the U.S?
    The liberal formula:
    Muslims killing anyone anywhere anytime for any reason: No problem– we have to understand their culture. It’s all the U.S’ fault anyway, (somehow). Let’s wait and see what Kofi says about it. After all, they vote Democrat in the U.S, so they can’t be all bad. Kinda like the felon vote.
    Congressional leader speaks to christian groups: evil intolerant right-wing religious zealots imposing a stifling theocracy. Get the ACLU, immediately, this is the apocalypse, er, I mean, the end of the world!

  • http://none ARV18

    You’re right Zeppenwolf.
    These people do not understand that our Leader, like our Savior is on the side of God. The liberal journalists and Democrats are enabling the enemy every time they bring up Abu Graib and other baseless accusations of torture.
    Why don’t these liberals condemn the torture against the Afghan women perpetrated by the Taliban?
    I think that it is because these liberals hate our troops.
    If we are to succeed in the war on terror, Americans must have Faith in our President. His Strife is our strife. His Struggle is our struggle.

  • mara

    And can we maybe point out that the Red Cross has substantiated Newsweek’s claims?
    Apples and people who are willing to say and believe anything to come out looking like a hero.

  • http://none ARV18

    The Red Cross is an antiwar group. They do not understand that we are fighting for Peace and Liberty.
    They want to enable the terrorists. They are as irrelevent in the war on terror as the United Nations.

  • tonynoboloney

    Jeff asks, “Where is the outrage?” I think some of you are missing the point. Not only is vocal opposition (outrage) nessessary from moderate muslims world wide, the entire world press needs to condemn these atrocities. Especially the United States press, how dare MSM portray this continued killing of innocent civillians an “american Problem”. Instead of focusing on the real culprits, FANATIC MUSLIM TERRORISTS. While the American press continues its grudge match with the current administration by issuing sleazy inuendos and out right lies pertaining to the war in Iraq. Where is the outrage? I’m mad as hell. TONY

  • http://RuthCalvo Ruth

    Wonderful way of proving Friedman’s point here.
    Few posts took up the theme that the followers of the Koran are not learning evil from their holy book. He says: “From what I know of Islam, it teaches that you show reverence to God by showing reverence for his creations, not just his words.” For those showing their fellowship with mankind here, thanks.
    Approaching a third here of the posts are exulting in the fact that only 50 muslims in the D.C. area were brave enough to make their faces available in the press so that terrorists would know who were against them. And that is some sort of illustration of the world population of muslims being terrorists under the surface because they serve Allah, too.
    Can you say “From what I know of Christianity, it teaches that you show reverence to God by showing reverence for his creations, not just his words”?
    Christ asked better of us all, whatever party or credo you choose to follow in his name. “Do unto others as ye would have them do unto you”, anyone?

  • http://none ARV18

    I’m mad at the journalists too. These liberals do not realize that the President was re-elected by the highest number of people in history. We the people are with our august Leader.
    The liberals are trying to bring down the President. Therefore, they are trying to bring down the American People. George W. Bush’s Struggle is our Struggle. Love it or Leave it…
    The only ideal future for our Homeland would be if the liberals and journalists either became Conservatives or if not, they could leave the country.

  • Catherine

    I’m pretty sure ARV18 is being sarcastic. At least I hope ARV18 is being sarcastic.
    Uh, Zeppenwolf, calm down. Actually Kat’s post wasn’t calling on moderate muslims to decry terrorism. This is what Kat’s post said:
    I have no intention of respecting a koran until the day that muslims respect other religions. Till that happens, I will see the koran a nothing more than a terror manual, if muslims allow murder in its name. Next time just shred it as in this article.
    You know, there are a lot of fundamentalist Muslims who sound a lot like Kat–just insert “Americans” for “Muslims” and “Bible” for “Koran”.
    What we need here is some historical perspective. First of all, Islam is hardly the first religion to invoke religion to justify violence. Remember the Inquisition? How about the ideal of the Buddhist warrior? So for anyone to say that Islam is somehow a more violent religion than any other is false. At this point in human history, it just so happens to be some crackpot Muslims who are bastardizing their religion in order to justify their crazy beliefs. Now before the hysterics jump on me and tell me I hate the troops because I’m condoning terrorist violence, please. I’m not condoning any violence. I’m just pointing out that you shouldn’t be so bigoted towards Islam and Muslim people in general and view the whole faith as violent because of the acts of a few crazies that have been perpetrated over the last 40 years (a very, very short timespan in the context of the whole of human history). As a Catholic, I certainly wouldn’t want my faith to be judged solely on the Inquisition.

  • Rapscallion Jones

    Soldier Dad-
    No one is asking for perfection from our troops. We are, I think, asking for some sort of basic intelligence and morality from them (competence is also a good thing). Saying something like “it’s not a good idea to torture a detainee and then take a picture of you with the tortured person, giving the thumbs up — in fact it’s sorta evil” doesn’t strike me as a case of requiring too much from our troops, especially when we are also engaged in a PR war.

  • Catherine

    Tony–I think you’re right. I probably didn’t make this clear in my previous posts because I was so caught up in responding to Kat’s fanaticism, but I think the violence needs to be condemned by everyone ESPECIALLY moderate Muslims, and I think Tom Friedman is one of the more courageous people in the press for pointing that out. It’s not productive for people in the Muslim world to blame everything on the US. Just as I’ve said that the Bush admin needs to stop it’s implied support for torture, the Muslim world needs to stop it’s implied support for violence. The problem I see is that irrationality is winning out on BOTH sides. No one is looking at this clearly, and no one wants to admit when their side is wrong for fear of losing some perceived moral status. The Muslims who are rioting are caught up in their agenda, Bush admin supporters are caught up in their agenda, anti-war people are caught up in their agenda. Can’t we all just stop being so f-ing hysterical for once?

  • http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

    I’ve decided to appreciate ARV18’s comments as satire, intentional or not…

  • http://RuthCalvo Ruth

    Jersey Exile:
    I like your choice.
    Actually, the same general approach has been one I think is best applied to a few other extremists, as well, where too much respect is implied by a reasoned reply.

  • http://none Petey W.

    This was the funniest part of the Bagram so-called torture story:
    Some of the same M.P.’s took a particular interest in an emotionally disturbed Afghan detainee who was known to eat his feces and mutilate himself with concertina wire. The soldiers kneed the man repeatedly in the legs and, at one point, chained him with his arms straight up in the air, Spc. Callaway told investigators. They also nicknamed him “Timmy,” after a disabled child in the animated television series “South Park.” One of the guards who beat the prisoner also taught him to screech like the cartoon character, Spc. Callaway said.
    Eventually, the man was sent home.
    ROTFL!!! :)
    These terrorists are reall only getting what they deserve and what’s been comin’ to them.

  • AST

    I’m wondering why we’re just reading this now, after the Newsweek retraction? Apparently, this story is the result of the military investigating itself, which makes it a case of individuals out of bounds, not a policy to torture prisoners.
    I have to wonder about the timing of this leak and the motives of whoever leaked it. Accounts like this are troubling, but coming from the NYTimes, I can’t trust it to be a fair and objective report. It’s luridly written, to elicit maximum outrage, particularly from Muslims, as the Newsweek leak that wasn’t did.
    The current climate in the media is poisonous. They are so intent on proving that the Newsweek story was based on truth even if the exact details turned out to be wrong, that I prefer to wait for the Pentagon’s response. This is starting to look like a meltdown of professional detachment. These are the same people who accused the blogosphere of being a pack of wolves and vigilantes, but the Eason Jordan, CBS memo scandal, etc. only made most people think the MSM had lost their minds.
    They may have good sourcing for the Bagram story and the photo of Saddam in his underwear, but the issue isn’t that some individuals are ignorant boors when given a little authority. The reports are that the military is steaming mad about the leaking of these photos in violation of its rules. So are these stories really proof that the whole military is out of control and bent on demeaning Muslim prisoners? Add them up and compare them to the numbers of people we have in custody.
    Abu Ghraib was sickening and disgusting, and so are the stories out today, although the photo of Saddam in his shorts doesn’t bother me. What bothers me is that members of the news media have made themselves participants in violation of the Geneva Conventions by publishing information they should recognize as explosive and possibly illegal in a petty effort to get even with the White House Press Spokesman.
    I hope the reporters are willing to go to jail to protect their sources, because those sources deserve to be jailed along with any soldiers who committed abuse of prisoners.

  • franky

    AST,
    Are you seriously suggesting that a whistleblower should serve the same time as the crime he’s bringing to light? The typical whistleblower has been someone who feels the bueracracy is trying to cover something up and this person believes is wrong.

  • Kat

    Yeah sure, Catherine, a handful of terrorists scare the hijabs and headrags right off the billion moderates. Who the hell do you think you are kidding? It is idiots like you who enable and encourage terrorists by searching back hundreds of years to try find equivalencies to condone these modern day barbarians. You are no better than the terrorists. It is people like you, who refuse to hold these beheading bastards accountable that give them courage and comfort. Turn the other cheek and get a fucking knife in the back–that’s what being Christian to these monsters gets you.

  • Kat

    Just read a great article in the Boston Globe:
    {But what disgraces Islam above all is the vast majority of the planetís Muslims saying nothing and doing nothing about the jihadist cancer eating away at their religion. It is Free Muslims Against Terrorism, a pro-democracy organization, calling on Muslims and Middle Easterners to îconverge on our nationís capital for a rally against terrorismî ó and having only 50 people show up.
    Yes, Islam is disrespected. That will only change when throngs of passionate Muslims show up for rallies against terrorism, and when rabble-rousers trying to gin up a riot over a defiled Koran canít get the time of day.}
    http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/05/19/why_islam_is_disrespected?mode=PF

  • Faramin

    Kat,
    Are you seriously not getting tired of yourself? Please seek some professional help, and I don’t mean this as an insult. But I really think you are a threat to any diverse society with different ethnical groups living in it when you walk in the streets with such a hatred that has filled your top to bottom towards many people with different backgrounds.

  • Kat

    Sorry, Faramin, I have no room in a society for people who fly planes into tall buildings, blow up kids in schools and buses, and who have no respect for my beliefs. I know they are your buddies, but I abhor them. Anyone willing to strap on a bomb to kill innocents needs the professional help–so please seek it before you act.

  • daudder

    why can’t people just express THEIR OWN outrage, and stop telling everyone else what to be outraged about.
    we all live in glass houses, dude.

  • http://RuthCalvo Ruth

    daudder:
    Nice try, and comment, but you’re putting yourself in the middle of a p*ss*ng contest here. Often a Friday night dance.

  • la

    Tom Friedman is a hack. He has been wrong on everything I have ever heard him talk about. The war, the dot.com bubble, etc. He even thinks that the world is flat. Maybe we can get him to sail off the edge.
    Of course, he is right about the one dollar one vote thing, so I guess no one is totally wrong about everything-except W. He has been wrong about everything, now hasn’t he?

  • http://www.hfienberg.com/kesher/ Yehudit

    “Saying something like “it’s not a good idea to torture a detainee and then take a picture of you with the tortured person, giving the thumbs up — in fact it’s sorta evil” doesn’t strike me as a case of requiring too much from our troops, especially when we are also engaged in a PR war.”
    If you read the whole NYTimes article, that is exactly what some soldiers did, and you will also notice how many times the article says “so and so is now being prosecuted.” most of the stuff in the article happened 2 years ago. The article was published because the Army gave the report to the Times.

  • Gonzo

    I don’t think you really want muslims to express their outrage at being governed and killed by repressive muslim regimes. What if some of the outraged muslims, say from Saudi Arabia, decide that their government is so outrageously repressive that the only way out is to try to bring it down through acts of terrorism. Furthermore, what if they decide that hitting at allies of their government, say the US, is also a legitimate tactic. And just for kicks, what if they decide to name themselves Al-Qaida. Is that really what you want?

  • Chris

    Oh those cuddly Muslims, calling for another 9/11 over in London:
    http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/18759971?source=PA&ct=5
    Sigh.

  • http://none ARV18

    See, That is why I think that we need to use our closing military bases to detain all of our Moslems, Liberals and Democrats.
    Those fools do not understand that our President is one of the Greatest who has ever served our nation and our Lord.
    We must put the brakes on this rampant liberalism as soon as possible if we hope to bring the Moslem menace under control.
    Our country is a Christian Land. We must bring the Pure Lord back to our People.

  • http://RuthCalvo Ruth

    Go for it, ARV18, hope you’re working on the convention under which these detainees are to be treated.

  • http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

    Our country is a Christian Land.
    Bzzt! Wrong answer:
    From the Treaty of Tripoli (1796/1797)–
    “Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

  • http://none ARV18

    Ruth, Enablers can be detained under the USA Patriot Act–Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism
    and Jersey Exile, we ARE a Christian Nation. How many Moslem presidents have we had? Our Leader is restoring Christianity with dignity to the Homeland. All of you secular humanists and Moslems are full of hatred for the Lord. This hatred is also expended on our President.

  • Kat

    { as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation,} So who stole the planes and murdered 3000? Don’t think it was Jews or Buddhists. And why do those bastards keep demanding a Caliphate in America? I’d rather see them dead than be dhimmified. I’m sick and tired of appeasing muslims by teaching islam in our schools while being afraid to mention the word Christian. We can’t have the Bible in schools but we are forcefed the stinking koran. Pretty soon we will be little europe if we allow CAIR and company(leftists) to have their way.

  • http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

    ARV18, you are truly a master of rhetoric. For how can I possibly refute the all-caps rebuttal? Perhaps if I dig deep…
    We ARE NOT a Christian nation, nor are we anywhere close to becoming a Caliphate as Kat seems to think. At its most fundamental level the United States is a nation which protects the sovereign right not to be like everyone else. No other nation on Earth was conceived in such learned, principled obstinacy. Americans would no more allow a Muslim theocratic government tell them what to do and how to pray than they would a Christian one–this is why the First Amendment, which guarantees the freedom of religion, is followed closely by the Second.

  • Kat

    You’re already allowing islamic theocrats to tell you how to think. They tell you it’s all America’s fault that they kill infidels worldwide and you swallow that shit, and worse still people like you regurgitate it. You’re already a dhimmi.

  • http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

    Kat,
    You’re off your rocker. I never said that Islamist terrorism was all America’s fault, although we are in part to blame or training and funding the men who would become al-Qaeda to do our dirty work against the Soviets in Central Asia. That being said, no one deserves to be blown up–either by suicide bombers or stray American missiles. Terrorists should of course be hunted down and killed like the dogs they are, but let’s not confuse the ideological fanatics with the people who are legimitately aggrieved by a war effort and occupation in Iraq which has clearly not made life better for the majority (unless you’re into a homicide rate that makes New Orleans look like Disneyland and the rising spectre of fundamentalist Islam that you’re peeing your pants about here in America).

  • Kat

    Fundamentalism isn’t rising–we’re just finally admitting how serious it is. All those years Clinton kissed their asses, they plotted, planned, and prepared while using our country for funding. How concerned are you about the homicide rate in Darfaur(could be as many as 300,000 dead), Sudan, Nigeria, Ambon? Or as long as it’s in allah’s name and you can’t blame the US, it’s acceptable? Why is it that muslims are involved in almost every war going on in the world today, as they were when Clinton was in power. This is nothing new–Bush just had the guts to do something about 30 some years of islamics’ attacks on the US.
    But you go do your thing Jersey. I’m sure you hate Bush more than you hate the terrorists and that you are praying hard to allah that the insurgents are successful in Iraq.

  • http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

    And you must not know any liberals, Kat, because I can’t find one in my neck of the woods (The People’s Republic of Cambridge) who subscribes to the tenets of fundamentalist Islam. We tend to treat religious freaks here with equal disdain, as New Englanders have a long and at times painful history of official religious intolerance run amok.

  • http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

    Fundamentalism is rising in Iraq, Kat–remember that country we supposedly saved from the tyranny of Saddam Hussein, only to deliver it squarely into the hands of firebrand Islamic preachers who think that girls who go outside their houses without family escort are sluts?
    I deplore all killing, in anyone’s name. Genocide should be called by its proper term and stopped wherever it occurs. I’m happy that you Righties have finally woken up to the universality of human rights, but we on the Left have been doing the heavy lifting in that regard for the better part of a century, thank you very much.

  • http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

    And for the record, I don’t hate Bush, although I am angered by much of what he has done in my country’s name. Love the sinner, hate the sin. I thought that was your camp’s mantra…

  • kat

    Geez, I laughed so hard I almost pissed my pants when I read ” but we on the Left have been doing the heavy lifting in that regard for the better part of a century, thank you very much.” I thought of how concerned you were about the human rights of Jews, Armenians, and Copts.

  • Faramin

    Jersey Exile,
    One little advise. Only argue with … when you want to see the lowest point of human intelligence, dignity, and the highest poit of idiocy and hatred. And well, also may be when you wish to laugh a bit.
    Believe me, that advise comes from experience.

  • LT

    what being the lowest point of human intelligence Faramin?. Is that what comes from experience? I think we have a winner. and its not me, or Kat. Jersey…well he once did compare the Iraq battlefield to a street corner in Camden…close but nahh, its you.

  • Faramin

    No LT, I didn’t mean you. You are not the lowest point. ;-)
    I think I have made you angry enough elsewhere today that you are now protecting the one who, well.., enough said.

  • LT

    nah i’m not angry Faramin. I try not to get angry over insignificant stuff, esp debates with Tachdeermachen or you, no matter how wrong you both are. I have real issues to deal with on a daily basis.

  • http://RuthCalvo Ruth

    Jersey Exile, etc., we may just be overestimating the intelligence of these really far out posters, since they can sort of read and write.
    My junior high Sunday school class once played a tape for me they’d made of a late night evangelist that was so ignorant it made a mockery of any possible teachings he might have encountered from the real Bible. That’s really what these total wingnuts remind me of.
    The unfortunate aspect is that kids who would benefit from exposure to the message of love and understanding are freaked out instead.

  • Kat

    And this is what you and Faramin remind me of, Ruth.
    http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/imageResults.aspx?s=ImagesSearchState|0|0|30|0|0|0|1|||0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|1|london%20embassy|0|0|0|0&p=1
    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/18759971?source=PA

  • franky

    Ruth,
    You mention “far out posters”. I’m coming to the conclusion that there’s in fact not much difference between the far out posters and many (not all) of the regular pro-war crowd here. One in particular spouts the vilest racism and hatred on this site – is she ever criticised by the others? No, in fact they run to defend this racist whenever someone calls her out on it (usually new arrivals – regulars normally wisely ignore the rants).

  • Kat

    You mean, it is I who ignores your rants…Franky..a vile little anti-America racist. Anyone who doesn’t share your hatred of America is a racist. We’re supposed to kiss muslim terrorist ass or we are racists. I’ll let you keep slurping. The thought sickens me.

  • Faramin

    Believe me, I don’t mean this as an insult, Kat. But you do need help, a serious professional help. Please seek help before you actually do something stupid. Then, you will eventally apprecaite this advise.

  • Kat

    I told you yesterday to seek professional help before putting on a vest like so many of your friends have done. You need to be telling that to your bretheren, not me. I know terrorism when I see it. I know dead silence when most muslims don’t condemn the murderers, only 50 managed to show up last week. I know you are pro terrorist and very anti-USA. I hope you take my advise and don’t listen to the jihadis.

  • Eileen

    Some of us are on the same page at least, thank God/Allah. As Kat was responding, so was I writing:
    Enough already. Lefties who can’t refrain from piling on and gratuitous snark should go find something better to do with their lives. I count three in the last few messages who weren’t even involved in the debate between Kat and Jersey, yet couldn’t contain their hatred and gang banging proclivity.
    Shall we address mental acuity and sanity with this crew? Nah. Shall we address lectures from the (purportedly) holier than thou about who would benefit from messages of love and understanding, or who should seek professional help? Nah. Shall we return to the topic of Jeff’s post?
    Regarding his statement, “I would add the press and the liberal establishment to his list of those who should be expressing outrage” regarding Muslims murdering Muslims, where IS the outrage of the Left? And where IS the outrage (or even coverage) of the press, something I lamented a few days ago? The only outrage I hear from either is when it can somehow be twisted into supposedly being the responsibility of the U.S.
    Muslims are killing Muslims and also Christians and those of all other mainstream religions across the globe. When will the Left and the press *get* the fact that jihad is about world dominion, the establishment of Islam as the one and only global theocracy, and the extermination of all Jews? If you agree with That plan, then don’t pretend to lecture me about matters related to love or sanity.
    And instead of perfecting the fine art of snark, perhaps spend a stray Saturday learning about our enemy (at least those who aren’t already aligned with the enemy).
    Someone early on argued that moderate Muslims don’t have the power to rein in their fanatic brethren. I say malarkey. If 1.5 BILLION MUSLIMS rose up in a single voice to decry the barbarism being practiced globally and retake their hijacked religion, a lot could be accomplished.
    The fact that moderate Muslims sit mostly mute is disturbing to say the least. Makes one wonder… And the fact that the American Left and the press also sit mostly mute in this regard is beyond disturbing at best.
    It bears repeating periodically: Thank You! LT, Howard, and All who serve for your sacrifices and for working to eliminate the scourge. Stay safe. You are often in my prayers

  • franky

    So shorter wingnut: carbomb goes off killing innocents. Gets reported and that is giving aid to fanatical terrorists because helps them spread terror. Doesn’t get reported and that is giving aid to terrorists because not showing their barbarity and not criticial enough of them.
    And exactly how retarded do you have to be to think that tens of thousands of people flock to Al-Qeda, Hamas etc etc because they want to make New Jersey live under Sharia law? yeah that’s our real problem today – must keep North Carolina free from being taken over by the jihadists. I mean do you people even bother anymore?

  • Kat

    Surely you know that it’s not just New Jersey.
    {In addition to Elkadi, the article features information from Mustafa Saied (about whose Muslim Brotherhood experiences the Wall Street Journal devoted a feature story in December 2003, without mentioning the organization’s Islamist goals). Saied, the Tribune informs us, says he found out that the U.S. Brotherhood had a plan for achieving Islamic rule in America: It would convert Americans to Islam and elect like-minded Muslims to political office. “They’re very smart. Everyone else is gullible,” Saied says. “If the Brotherhood puts up somebody for an election, Muslims would vote for him not knowing he was with the Brotherhood.”
    In suburban Rosemont, Ill., several thousand people attended MAS’ annual conference in 2002 at the village’s convention center. One speaker said, “We may all feel emotionally attached to the goal of an Islamic state” in America, but it would have to wait because of the modest Muslim population. “We mustn’t cross hurdles we can’t jump yet.”}
    http://www.danielpipes.org/article/2100

  • franky

    So I’ll go trawling through white supremacist sites and find a reference to killing all jews and blacks, then return here triumphantly saying that all whites want to kill jews and blacks ((better yet, I’ll just go to some like-minded person and then paste and copy here with a link of course).
    Funny that even in your quote here it suggests muslims wouldn’t vote for the candidate if they knew he was part of the muslim brotherhood – yep got yourself a real conspiracy here.

  • kevinP

    To All;
    Most muslims are not terrorists.I don’t have the breakdown statistically but somewhere between 70 to 85 per cent do not want to partake in violent acts.The vast majority of Muslims in America are outstanding citizens. Many of the Muslim governments are probably far more orthodox then most of us would be comfortable with but most are not bent on the destruction of our country.
    This said there is a minority of muslim thought and government that actively sponsors the worst type of terrorism and radical imperialistic theological plans, bordering on fascism. This does not mean that all Muslims should be tarred with acts of a minority but that does not mean pointing out the openly stated goals of these clerics and governments makes one a bigot or religously intolerant.
    “oh, but look at the Crusades and the Inquisition>” Please! These events, awfull as they were , happened CENTURIES ago. To bring them up as equivalents to actions that are taking place today is absurd. And to those who say that the war in Iraq is the first step in some modern day evangelical crusade they must point out the number of forced conversions to Christianity in Iraq or Afghanistan. When we leave those countries they will be Muslim countries, there is no effort to conquer them for Christianity so to bring up the inquisition or the crusades makes no sense.The Pope has a couple hundred Swiss guards and he was against the war. Funny way to start a cruade.
    Evangelical Christians are the same as radical Muslims. OK lets look at some examples. A newsweek story of a suppossed Koran flushing starts riots where many are killed. Piss Christ in a public mueseum brings impassioned but peacefull protest where the only medical damage is sore throats from yelling. The Virgin Mary portrayed with animal dung- same result. Christ portrayed as a homsexual on film, no deaths In those Muslim countries that have not joined the 20th century and slight hint of blasphomey still brings on public beheadings. I am sure someone can tell me when the last beheading from a Evangelical church occurred.
    “Ah, but what about the abortion clinic bombers.” There is not a single evangelical organization of any standing that has not condemned those actions.You might find a oddball pastor or two who called them good but there was no major evangelical or Catholic figure that did not call those actions what they are-Murder, terroism, sins. There are major clerics in the Muslim world, hundreds who have praised some of the most base actions of the terrorists. Ditto some Mulim governments. The inquisition and the crusades are historical facts but they have no connection to the modern church.
    Priest scandall, moral and financial crimes, there are plenty of Churches and christians that deserve to be condemned. But to excuse or rationalize the actions of the minority Muslim clerics or goverenments of today by bringing up the centuries old Imquisition and Crusades is the worst kind of stupidity.

  • Faramin

    I am sure someone can tell me when the last beheading from a Evangelical church occurred.
    Don’t look at things so simplistically. Beheading is not the only barbaric way of killing. Bombing from skys is also barbaric. Dropping “mother of bombs” is also barbaric. Torture and abuse of the proisoner, IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY, is also barbaric. Pushing for and supporting a criminal invasion and occupation of a country that has resulted in the death of tens of thousands of people, real people, is also barbaric. And Zionists and many Evangelican Christians have perfectly done their share in these killings.

  • kevinP

    faramin:
    Beheading someone because they have committed a sin against a book or they have committed adultry or any of the other religous sins against Allah, well if it isn’t midevil I guess I am behind the times.I am not saying all Muslims believe in this. But public beatings for showing your hair or two much skin is part of previous centuries and should have been left there. If you want to bring back 12th century theocracies or defend them then that is your choice.I have one question for you. We had an artist who put the symbol of Christianity in a bottle of his own urine. What would happen if a Muslim in Pakistan, Saudi arabia,or Iran did the same thing with a Koran in a public mueseum? He wouldn’t even get a trial. The mob would tear him apart.

  • Faramin

    KevinP,
    I won’t dispute the barabarism of religious fundamentalism. As a matter of fact, that fundamentlaism has grown in last few years, mainly because of the policies of the US. I am scared of fundamentalism, partly for the same reasons you mentioned and I am certainly not defending fundamentalism. I am not even defending religion, any religion, as I see them all anti-human dignity.
    Capital punishment, in any shape or form is barabric. Stoning is barbaric. Cutting off hands for stealing, like in the Saudi Arabia, US’s close ally, is barbaric.
    I would like to think that we do have something in common: I would like to think that we both reject relgious fundamentalism. But let’s expend this rejection to all religious fundamentalisms and not select ones.

  • franky

    Having just visited instapundit I’ve just learnt how the media operates: Step one – run an unsubstantiated story because you’re so desperate for a scoop (but only scoops that embarrass Republicans) to outdo your competition because you’re a cutthroat business. Step Two – Quickly rush to print stories that support your friends in the media, because the media is one big guild of friends.
    Again I ask – are you wingnuts even bothering these days?

  • Eileen

    Yeah, let’s DO be selective about the specific religious fundamentalism which represents our enemy: ISLAMISTS – the only fundamentalists of ANY religion on Earth who seek dominion over us all. You know, the ones who blew us up here in the U.S. on 9/11. The same ones who are blowing people up all over the world as we speak. The same ones who are represented by the speaker below.
    I believe Kat referenced this a few days back, but it bears repeating. From the May 17, 2005 weekly sermon of the Palestinian Authority as reported at MEMRI:
    “We have ruled the world before, and by Allah, the day will come when we will rule the entire world again. The day will come when we will rule America. The day will come when we will rule Britain and the entire world ñ except for the Jews. The Jews will not enjoy a life of tranquility under our rule, because they are treacherous by nature, as they have been throughout history. The day will come when everything will be relived [(sic) ‘relieved’] of the Jews – even the stones and trees which were harmed by them. Listen to the Prophet Muhammad, who tells you about the evil end that awaits Jews. The stones and trees will want the Muslims to finish off every Jew.”
    http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD90805
    World dominion and extermination of the Jews. This is jihad. Even moderate Muslims who don’t toe the Shariah line are targeted for death every single day.
    NO ONE says that ALL Muslims are terrorists or ‘follow’ Islamists (the Shariah crazed fanatics). However, 99.999% of ALL Muslims remain silent at the butchery, as does the Left and as does the media.

  • kevinP

    Faramin:
    But they are not all the same. There are very orthodox Muslims in this country who are peacefull. reject violence and are able to live in a pluralistic society without resorting to violence. Orthodox Christians would disagree with this Muslim strongly theologically but they have accepted the idea that forced submission to any faith is useless.It is bad for the faith and it is meaningless to the person you are coercing to believe.Ditto for Jews. That is why the Muslim faith is growing in this country because freedom of religion is respected in this country, the fact being that virtually every faith in the world is allowed to practice freely in this country.Perfect, of course not.

  • franky

    “When the Christian majority takes over this country, there will be no satanic churches, no more free distribution of pornography, no more talk of rights for homosexuals. After the Christian majority takes control, pluralism will be seen as immoral and evil and the state will not permit anybody the right to practice evil.”
    –Gary Potter, president of Catholics for Christian Political Action
    Ok, everyone look I’ve posted one quote, so I don’t expect to ever have this debate ever again – with this quote I’ve now proved all catholics hate homosexuals.

  • Eileen

    And to the non-American terrorist apologists and defenders around here I say, get out. We don’t need or want you here.
    franky, we don’t say ‘learnt’ in the U.S., any more than we use the Canadian or European spelling of a word you interjected a few days ago – something like ‘favour’ – escapes me now, but I could certainly find it as I called it to your attention then. Where are you from, franky?

  • Eileen

    BFD franky. Anti homosexuality, satanism and pornography vs. world dominion and extermination of the Jews? I guess you’ve proven something or other.

  • franky

    Eileen, do you really think its your place to tell people to get out of a public forum? Exactly when did you take over this blog? And who is the “we”, as in the “We don’t need or want you here”? come on, don’t be shy. You and Kat, maybe? Or was it that “I don’t need or want you here” didn’t have the same ring?
    Wouldn’t it be terrible if I wasn’t an American citizen and still knew and understood the country better than you and handled your language with greater ease than you? however I remain a US citizen – but you and others feel free to google me instead of answering my points. By the way, since we’re on this subject – what difference would it make if I was from France or Germany or China? Is this the latest wingnut version of covering your ears and singing “la-la-la I can’t hear you”? Or is this your little way of trying to exclude people who you can’t argue with? Given how much you hate opposing views, I really don’t understand why you don’t just spend your time at LGF or some other wingnut site.
    And to the final point – yeah I proved that it’s retarded to copy and paste one quote from one person and then apply it to a religion that covers 1.3 billion people. Sorry that wasn’t clearer.

  • Kat

    There will always be fundamentalists like Franky and Faramin. They will accuse anyone who doesn’t buy into their quest for muslim world dominatiion by hurling the bigot and racist card and searching for equivalencies that are a thousand years old. But then once in a blue moon you find a good muslim who is willing to fight for his country like we are doing in the war on terror and I know that in the long run good will conquer evil–evil being islamism. If this one muslim is willing to become a victim of hate for believing like I do, then I realize that little terror supporters like Franky and Faramin are not worth my while. They have been educated to hate me while I have to relern that all people aren’t good and that islam isn’t peace and millions of its followers desire to dominate the world at any price. However, I love mulims like this guy. He has the guts to speak up instead of cover his face and swarm like some mad man.
    On May 9th, a Saudi student at Arizona State University, Muhammad Al-Gurashi was arrested for direct connections to terror. He personally drove convicted terrorist supporter Faisal Al-Salmi on numerous occasions to President Bush’s Crawford, Texas ranch apparently on a pre-terror reconnaissance mission. This April, the home of Hassan Alrafea, president of the ASU Muslim students’ association was raided by the FBI for suspected terror-links, confiscating their computers. But the left-wing political orthodoxy of our university prefers to stay silent on the matter.
    †In fact, we are not the only university in this country that has problems with its Saudi students covertly supporting terrorism. Sami Al Hussayen a former president of the Muslim Students Association in his college in Idaho was arrested by federal officials for his role in raising funds for Al-Qaeda’s terror network. Academics rallied to his defense.
    At the same† when ASU radical Muslim student Ahmad Saad Nasim faked a “hate crime” on himself, on two separate occasions the university’s president held a press conference the same day denouncing the alleged hate against Muslim Americans that that 9-11 had supposedly inspired. Yet, the ASU administration was silent about the Islamist hate that led to 9-11 attack itself.
    When I, a proud American of Arab decent and Muslim faith, took a stand on behalf of the liberation of my oppressed Iraqi brethren, the ASU Muslim Students’ Association personally attacked me for not being a real Muslim and announced to the ASU student body in editorials in the student paper that I Oubai Mohammad Shahbandar was a hater of Arabs and Muslims. There was no press conference by the president of this university or anyone else in his administration in behalf of this Muslim victim of Islamist hate.
    We didn’t land on terror, terror landed on us. But our professors tell us America is to blame, our universities sponsor “educational” programs designed to install in the American student a sense of shame for being American, and yet here we are on the cusp of a great struggle in human history between the forces of decency and democracy and tyranny and terror. Yet we are told America is to blame for terror.
    We are told America’s foreign policy is based on racist neo-imperialism, we are taught that national security is a foul epithet to be reviled; we are told the Jews and Israel are to blame for the hatred against us. We are told that multiculturalism and diversity classes are the bridges to world peace and an end to terrorism as we know it. We are told this even though the Saudi terrorists who slaughtered our fellow Americans that September morning were able to manipulate our generally open environment of tolerance to achieve their evil designs. Despite all the all too evident signs of their malevolent intent, the murderers were given the benefit of the doubt by INS agents too wary to make judgments and leftist university officials who preferred to turn a blind eye to the danger emanating from their own campuses lest they lose their precious Saudi tuition dollars and donations or incur the wrath of the ACLU and other leftwing “civil liberties” organizations. We are told that despite evidence to the contrary most Saudi students are peaceful and accepting of our American culture.
    Our radical professors tell us that the war on Iraq is racist, while the radicals on campus Show their contempt for this proud Arab people and its liberation. In our history classes We are told to despise our founding fathers and traditional American principles; in our political Science classes we are taught to to fear our president and our own armed forces. We are told to hate men in women’s studies and to hate white people in African studies. In Chicano literature courses we are taught that Arizona is Mexico and in Gay and Lesbian studies that the Bible is hate-literature.
    America is the principle adversary of Islamist terror and whether by choice or birth we all inhabit the same danger zone. But our professors never teach us the truth — that the war on terror protects all Americans, white, brown, black, Asian, Arab, Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, straight or gay from the despotic hatred of Islamist terrorism, which seeks our extermination. That’s right, OUR extermination.
    In sum, we are taught to hate everything except that which seeks our annihilation.
    The frontlines of this war stretch across the entire globe and into our classrooms, our homes, our places of worship, into every aspect of our everyday lives. But don’t tell this to our tenured terror appeasers who hide behind the intellectual credentials that have been bestowed on them by the anti-American university system.
    They have never known the humiliation of living under the iron rule of an Islamic despotism. I have. They have never tasted the cruel bitterness of forced silence in the shadows of a dictatorship. I have. They have never seen the face of evil. I have. For I was born and raised in Syria, the country enslaved by Hafez El-Assad. I was one of the fortunate victims of this tyranny because my family was able to emigrate to American a land of freedom. Yet in the free universities of this country legitimacy is bestowed on the very forces that oppress my former countrymen and I am instructed to be compassionate towards my own oppressors and to be hostile to the country that has liberated me.
    I have had to witness the post 9-11 “teach in” sponsored by our university president’s “Campus Environment Team” entitled “Understanding the ‘other,'” which sought to place moral equivalency between America and the terrorists who attacked us. I have had to listen to inanities about the attack like that of a member of the university-sponsored Diversity Awareness Programming Board who said, ” we must remember that 9-11 was about diversity too.” I have been subjected to the humiliating prospect of the university’s anti-American, anti-war poetry reading, sponsored by our English Department last April. I have had to watch our unversity president, Michael Crow, provide a platform for the former Swedish Ambassador so he could spill his anti-American bile before a university audience. I have had to listen to the Administration’s guest Mary Francis Berry denounce the most tolerant nation in the world as a racist oppressor. I have had to walk daily by the mural plastered on the Memorial Union and sponsored by the university’s “progressive coalition” and funded by the university itself which features a map of the United States with “Racist Nation” and “Bush is Racist” and “What about the Arabs” written across it.
    This August I will be heading to Israel to study counter terrorism under a program hosted by the Foundation for the Defense of Democracy. I, a Muslim Arab was able to attend this program largely due to the gracious sponsorship of David Horowitz, a Jew. No multicultural sensitivity class made that possible.† I will not stand idly by as our professors and our universities pave the road for terror’s long march into humanity’s last sanctuary of freedom.
    What contribution will you make to the cause of liberty, to our nation’s security?
    I am a Muslim American Arab and I am willing to fight for my country. How about you?
    Oubai Mohammad Shahbandar

  • Faramin

    Franky,
    This is the same 007 who once tried to prove Franky and Faramin are the same person. And the main evidense for her discovery? Both names start with “F”. Yes, she is THAT intelligent.
    This is the same person who has been googling me too many times for the hope of finding something new against me, perhaps to pass along to the CIA as she did before (how dumber than this one can get?). This is the same person who has been constantly asking people with opposing views who they are, where they are from and .. . This is the same person who agian and agian showed how much she hated freedom of speech. This is the same person who has no life (period).
    And to the non-American terrorist apologists and defenders around here I say, get out. We don’t need or want you here.
    Knowing her deep practical beliefe in racism, it is clear who the above is addressed to. It is nice of you to do your DEMOCRATIC DUTY to criticize her for this comment (something that not many -if any- rightwingers, Including Jeff Jarvis, have the courage to do), but this is just like me saying to her, that her entire existance is waste of oxigen, but hey I recognize that not all the resourses of the world is spent wisley, and waste is part of the reality that has to be just accepted. So, she is more than welcome to continue breathing.

  • Kat

    Yes, unfortunately waste is a part of reality, and if there was ever a waste of skin, you are it, followed closely by “Fido”.

  • http://RuthCalvo Ruth

    franky (and like-minded):
    Good point. And thanks for the quote, that’s pretty rich. Yes, you have noticed, for the most part it’s not worth reading certain posts, if you’ve read one you read them all. Noted that there are whole sites full of these rants, so, as with ‘indecency’ charges, we can choose not to go there. It would be nice if the names of posters here came first so you wouldn’t waste the time wading into trash before you realize what you’re wading in.
    I suppose it’s doing us at reasonable posts a favor to remind us that’s there’s a universe full of this stuff out there, but I do repeat, it’s a shame that, as in the muslim world, there is such alienation that it freaks out the young people looking for role models. When we can see ranting rhetoriticians in positions of power, it diminishes interest in public affairs. Also diminished is respect for public servants in general. I truly hope that as public service becomes the norm in muslim nations, more reasoned debate will predominate and use of demonstrations and violence will fall out of use. Would that we were setting a better example in this country.

  • Kat

    (Would that we were setting a better example in this country.) I agree–those Leftist anti-war marches are fuel for the terrorist fire–many of the marchers wear rags and burn American flags and carry anti-semitic placards…like minded people like Franky and Ruth. They are the mouthpieces of terrorists abroad. They have learned the following lessons well on condoning terrorism:(esp. # 19)
    1. Terminate America’s freedom of speech by replacing it with statewide and nationwide hate-crime bills.
    2. Wage a war of words using black leaders like Louis Farrakhan, Rev. Jesse Jackson and other visible religious personalities who promote Islam as the religion of African-Americans while insisting Christianity is for whites only. What they fail to tell African-Americans is that it was Arab Muslims who captured them and sold them as slaves. In fact, the Arabic word for black and slave is the same, ”Abed.”
    3. Engage the American public in dialogues, discussions, debates in colleges, universities, public libraries, radio, TV, churches and mosques on the virtues of Islam. Proclaim how it is historically another religion like Judaism and Christianity with the same monotheistic faith.
    4. Nominate Muslim sympathizers to political office to bring about favorable legislation toward Islam and support potential sympathizers by block voting.
    5. Take control of as much of Hollywood, the press, TV, radio and the Internet as possible by buying the related corporations or a controlling stock.
    6. Yield to the fear of the imminent shut-off of the lifeblood of America ñ black gold. Americaís economy depends on oil and 41 percent of it comes from the Middle East.
    7. Yell ”foul, out-of-context, personal interpretation, hate crime, Zionist, un- American, inaccurate interpretation of the Quran” anytime Islam is criticized or the Quran is analyzed in the public arena.
    8. Encourage Muslims to penetrate the White House, specifically with Islamists who can articulate a marvelous and peaceful picture of Islam. Acquire government positions and get membership in local school boards. Train Muslims as medical doctors to dominate the medical field, research and pharmaceutical companies. (Ever notice how numerous Muslim doctors in America are, when their countries need them more desperately than America?) Take over the computer industry. Establish Middle Eastern restaurants throughout the U.S. to connect planners of Islamization in a discreet way.
    9. Accelerate Islamic demographic growth via:
    * Massive immigration (100,000 annually since 1961).
    * Use no birth control whatsoever ñ every baby of Muslim parents is automatically a Muslim and cannot choose another religion later.
    * Muslim men must marry American women and Islamize them (10,000 annually). Then divorce them and remarry every five years ñ since one can’t legally marry four at one time. This is a legal solution in America.
    * Convert angry, alienated black inmates and turn them into militants (so far 2,000 released inmates have joined al-Qaida worldwide). Only a few ”sleeper cells” have been captured in Afghanistan and on American soil.
    10. Reading, writing, arithmetic and research through the American educational system, mosques and student centers (now 1,500) should be sprinkled with dislike of Jews, evangelical Christians and democracy. There are currently 300 exclusively Muslim schools in the U.S. which teach loyalty to the Quran, not the U.S. Constitution. In January of 2002, Saudi Arabiaís Embassy in Washington mailed 4,500 packets of the Quran and videos promoting Islam to America’s high schools ñ free of charge. Saudi Arabia would not allow the U.S. to reciprocate.
    11. Provide very sizeable monetary Muslim grants to colleges and universities in America to establish ”Centers for Islamic studies” with Muslim directors to promote Islam in higher-education institutions.
    12. Let the entire world know through propaganda, speeches, seminars, local and national media that terrorists have hijacked Islam, when in truth, Islam hijacked the terrorists.
    13. Appeal to the historically compassionate and sensitive Americans for sympathy and tolerance towards Muslims in America who are portrayed as mainly immigrants from oppressed countries.
    14. Nullify America’s sense of security by manipulating the intelligence community with misinformation. Periodically terrorize Americans of impending attacks on bridges, tunnels, water supplies, airports, apartment buildings and malls.
    15. Form riots and demonstrations in the prison system demanding Islamic Sharia as the way of life, not America’s justice system.
    16. Open numerous charities throughout the U.S., but use the funds to support Islamic terrorism with American dollars.
    17. Raise interest in Islam on America’s campuses by insisting freshman take at least one course on Islam.
    18. Unify the numerous Muslim lobbies in Washington, mosques, Islamic student centers, educational organizations, magazines and papers by Internet and an annual convention to coordinate plans, propagate the faith and engender news in the media.
    19. Send intimidating messages and messengers to the outspoken individuals who are critical of Islam and seek to eliminate them by hook or crook.
    20. Applaud Muslims as loyal citizens of the U.S. by spotlighting their voting record as the highest percentage of all minority and ethic groups in America.
    Shorrosh is a member of the Oxford Society of Scholars, has traveled in 76 countries, and is a lecturer and producer of TV documentaries. ”Islam Revealed” is a bestseller now in its eighth printing. His forthcoming 10th book, from which the 20-point plan is abridged, is titled ”Islam: A Threat or a Challenge.”
    ”The True Furqan” Islam-Exposed.org. Shorrosh’s new website is Focusing-on-Islam.com.

  • syn

    To think, I recently attended a rally organized by a Jewish organization here in NYC calling for the end of Sudanese Arab Muslim government to stop slaughtering black Sudanese Muslims for sport.
    That said, how is it possible Liberal America can defend the idea that respecting the world’s most racist and sexist Middle Eastern societies is the decent thing to do?
    What can be said of Rev. Martin Luther King, his belief in God, Christanity and that religious right-wing church he belonged to and preached from leading the Civil Rights movement in America.
    Would he be considered, like President Bush, a theocratic, right-wing religious nut ruler?
    American Liberalism is shameful for abandoning it’s principles all for the sake of bottom-fed political posturing.

  • Faramin

    syn,
    American Liberalism is shameful for abandoning it’s principles all for the sake of bottom-fed political posturing.
    Have you ever thought of attending a protest against US’s support of the Uzback regime who is also killing its own people? Have you ever thought of condemning Bush’s deep friendship with Karimov, Uzback president who is well-known for torturing and boiling his opponents? Have you ever thought of opposing Bush dinesty’s close and deep friendship with the Saudi Royal family who are also well-known for the human right abuses? And many more? Have you ever thought of them?
    Where is YOUR principles on these issues, or do your “principles” only apply to select cases?

  • Faramin

    Oh BTW Syn,
    Please don’t dis-respect Martin Luther King by equating him with George Bush. They are world apart and do not equate, neither intellectually, nor principly.

  • Eileen

    Thanks for the great links and quotes, Kat.

  • Faramin

    I just came across an open-letter to Bush from 823 students, faculty and alumni of Calvin College:
    Unlike some, I won’t copy/paste the whole thing. Just a link should be sufficient. You decide if you wish to read the whole letter.
    Here is an excerpt:
    By their deeds ye shall know them, says the Bible. Your deeds, Mr. Presidentóneglecting the needy to coddle the rich, desecrating the environment, and misleading the country into waródo not exemplify the faith we live by.
    Moreover, many of your supporters are using religion as a weapon to divide our nation and advance a narrow partisan agenda. We are deeply disappointed in your failure to renounce their inflammatory rhetoric.

  • Eileen

    Do not allow the terrorist supporters here to deflect the discussion into a typical off topic anti-American rant.
    The subject is Muslims killing Muslims and lack of outrage by moderate Islam, the press and our liberal establishment. Here is a chilling article which includes al Zarqawi’s stated justifications for killing Muslims in the course of jihad: http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/05/18/iraq.main/
    “The voice says in Arabic: “The shedding of Muslim blood … is allowed in order to avoid the greater evil of disrupting jihad.”
    The voice says the protection of religion “is more important than protecting lives, honor or wealth.”
    “God knows that we were careful not to kill Muslims, and we have called off many operations in the past to avoid losses … but we cannot kill infidels without killing some Muslims. It is unavoidable,” he adds.
    The speaker defends suicide attacks, saying, “killing of infidels by any method including martyrdom operations has been sanctified by many scholars even if it meant killing innocent Muslims.”
    “This legality has been agreed upon … so as not to disrupt jihad,” or “holy war,” the recording says.”

  • http://RuthCalvo Ruth

    Faramin, you forgot to post the link. Thanks. Oh, and thanks also for persisting in taking the blinkers off some of these views.

  • Eileen

    “18 March 2005: A 113-page, Arabic language online book has been published by al Qaeda’s Center of Islamic Studies and Research. The book is titled Idarat al-Tawahhush, or “The Management of Barbarism,” and its author, Abu Bakr Naji, is a former contributing writer for the now-defunct online publication Sawt al-Jihad, or Voice of Jihad magazine. The last issue of that publication was in October of last year.
    The book outlines the goals of Islam as a being a global dominating force through Jihad, and details the strategy of the Mujahideen in armed struggle against non-Muslim forces and nations. It is broken down into chapters that cite specific historic and current examples of effective jihad as well as pointing out mistakes made along the way. Its importance lies in its intricate and methodical approach to the mapping of a social, economic and military strategy designed to raise Islam into global domination.
    Interestingly, it outlines what could be considered future desired targets inside the current Islamic domain and beyond. It explains the importance and logistics behind targeting tourist resorts worldwide frequented by ìcrusaders and infidels,î the targeting of economic interests such as banks that cater to non-Muslim interests (e.g. Turkey), even if located on Muslim land, and strategic oil installations wherever located that will sharply create an adverse economic impact to the West.
    The book appeals for the cooperation of all Muslims wherever they are located, including the U.S., to assist in this asymmetrical global jihad. The author identifies the important reference material for jihad, including The Encyclopedia of Jihad; the al-Battar paramilitary series; the writings of Abu Ubayd al-Qurashi in the al-Ansar magazine, along with other militant works.
    The book strongly promotes the use of maximum violence to be used as a deterrent against the goals of Jihad, or as a response to the defense of the Mujahideen, even if such a response will take years.
    A significant portion of this book describes the effective manipulation of the international and western media to ensure the delivery of the message of Jihad, and to raise the mediaís support of the plight of the various Islamic groups. The book outlines a number of scenarios in which this could be accomplished, and stresses the value of positive media attention to the ìplightî of Islam.”
    http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/article.asp?id=119

  • Kat

    Ruth, when the hell are you going to remove your blinkers or do you have your hand buried in the sand? Are you wearing one of those netted burkas?
    Faramin–good little jihadi, you are following the rules:{3. Engage the American public in dialogues, discussions, debates in colleges, universities, public libraries, radio, TV, churches and mosques on the virtues of Islam. Proclaim how it is historically another religion like Judaism and Christianity with the same monotheistic faith.}

  • Kat

    Gee, another koran korrection from the leftist liars club.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/20/AR2005052001472.html

  • http://none ARV18

    These Internationalist Liberals are all cowards and traitors. They are constantly stabbing those of us war true Patriots in the back. They really hate our Nation.
    The people of this nation must sychronize our resources in order to defeat these rabid Mahommedans. The liberal media bears the blame for this portrayal of them as peaceful. Remember, a Moslem is also a man, but a Dog is also an animal.
    Perhaps the Minutemen could serve as a citizens’ protective squadron. They could keep a watchful eye for those who seek to undermine our Leader.
    The President is there by the Grace of God. He is the only Leader who will see us through this War on terror.

  • Faramin

    Ruth,
    You are welcome. The link was at the beginning of the comment. But I post it here once more. Also, here is the PDF format of the same letter.

  • http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

    Holy Toledo! You guys are still going at it here?
    Eileen: So al-Qaeda and their radical Islamicist supporters want nothing less than world domination. Umm–duh? What else are they going to want? Mind you, no one on the serious Left is suggesting that we not go after al-Qaeda. That’s a bullplop strawman erected by conservative pundits who are afraid to criticize their Dear Leader’s clearly wrongheaded strategy against AQ.
    Kat: My wife’s family survived the Asia Minor catastrophe, her Greek great-grandparents barely escaping the clutches of genocidal Turks. Don’t tell me what I know and don’t know about human rights in the 20th Century and who aided and abetted whom.
    LT: Hey, I barely remembered that Camden comparison! I still think it’s right on the money…
    ARV18: You’re my new hero.

  • Faramin

    Kat,
    Oh, I just do one out of 20? Not a great rate of success. Is it? ;-)
    You are such a comical.

  • Kat

    No, Faramin, you’d likely get 100% as a jihadi–you’d likely meet all points perfectly.
    And here’s something close to home for you Jersey. You know this guy????
    IN JUNE 1991, Siraj Wahaj, a black convert to Islam and the recipient of some of the American Muslim community’s highest honors, had the privilege of becoming the first Muslim to deliver the daily prayer in the U.S. House of Representatives. On that occasion he recited from the Qur’an and appealed to the Almighty to guide American leaders “and grant them righteousness and wisdom.”
    A little over a year later, addressing an audience of New Jersey Muslims, the same Wahaj articulated a rather different message from his mild and moderate invocation in the House. If only Muslims were more clever politically, he told his New Jersey listeners, they could take over the United States and replace its constitutional government with a caliphate. “If we were united and strong, we’d elect our own emir [leader] and give allegiance to him …. [T]ake my word, if 6-8 million Muslims unite in America, the country will come to us.” In 1995, Wahaj served as a character witness for Omar Abdel Rahman in the trial that found that blind sheikh guilty of conspiracy to overthrow the government of the United States. More alarming still, the U.S. attorney for New York listed Wahaj as one of the “unindicted persons who may be alleged as co-conspirators” in the sheikh’s case.
    http://www.danielpipes.org/article/77

  • Kat

    No, Faramin, you’d likely get 100% as a jihadi–you’d likely meet all points perfectly.
    And here’s something close to home for you Jersey. You know this guy????
    IN JUNE 1991, Siraj Wahaj, a black convert to Islam and the recipient of some of the American Muslim community’s highest honors, had the privilege of becoming the first Muslim to deliver the daily prayer in the U.S. House of Representatives. On that occasion he recited from the Qur’an and appealed to the Almighty to guide American leaders “and grant them righteousness and wisdom.”
    A little over a year later, addressing an audience of New Jersey Muslims, the same Wahaj articulated a rather different message from his mild and moderate invocation in the House. If only Muslims were more clever politically, he told his New Jersey listeners, they could take over the United States and replace its constitutional government with a caliphate. “If we were united and strong, we’d elect our own emir [leader] and give allegiance to him …. [T]ake my word, if 6-8 million Muslims unite in America, the country will come to us.” In 1995, Wahaj served as a character witness for Omar Abdel Rahman in the trial that found that blind sheikh guilty of conspiracy to overthrow the government of the United States. More alarming still, the U.S. attorney for New York listed Wahaj as one of the “unindicted persons who may be alleged as co-conspirators” in the sheikh’s case.
    http://www.danielpipes.org/article/77

  • http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

    I see, Kat–I’m from New Jersey and I’m on the Left, so I *must* consort with suspected terrorists.
    I’m Italian, too. Want to know if I hang out with Tony Soprano?

  • http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

    p.s.,
    Daniel Pipes isn’t exactly playing with a full deck. Don’t say I didn’t warn you…

  • Kat

    All terrorists hate Daniel Pipes and say what you just did. That’s part of the terrorist agenda. They know what he says is true and that ruins their plans for hoodwindwinking naive and gullible people as yourself. (7. Yell ”foul, out-of-context, personal interpretation, hate crime, Zionist, un- American, inaccurate interpretation of the Quran” anytime Islam is criticized or the Quran is analyzed in the public arena.)

  • Faramin

    Kat,
    Your rate of change towards the ultimate level of stupidity is incredible. You must have a good “engine” to give you such speed.

  • Kat

    And terrorists resort to calling anyone who disagrees with them, stupid. Little do they realize that the really stupid one is the terrorist.
    They are too stupid to know that.

  • franky

    hahahaahahah
    “And terrorists resort to calling anyone who disagrees with them, stupid. Little do they realize that the really stupid one is the terrorist.
    They are too stupid to know that.”
    Is Kat really so deranged as to call herself a terrorist here? hahahahaah this is priceless. I mean I’ve seen some weirdness here but this is just great – tell us Kat how do terrorists eat their fries? with ketchup or mayonaise? do they write with their lefthand or righthand?

  • LT

    Jersey
    My response, in case you forgot was, when was the last time a car bomb went off in Camden? Please tell me how the two situations are even REMOTELY similar.
    LT

  • Faramin

    Kat,
    You don’t just disagree. You just scream. You just curse. You’re just mad and call everybody you don’t like a terrorist or a terrorist supporter. You are boringly reliculous. You don’t even understand what the civil way of disagreement is.

  • LT

    Kat, Eileen,
    I thought you guys might enjoy this.
    Here http://www.ippausa.org/home/outrage.htm#gw
    the Islamic Political Party of America calls for a National Day of Outrage concerning Newsweeks retraction of the Koran article. It also mentions the “war of aggression in Afghanistan.”
    LT

  • Kat

    No, I am not the one calling people stupid and going nuts like terrorists do. Next thing I know you guys will be swarming like they do when a terrorist dies.
    Thanks LT, I bet we see a bunch of swarming, screaming moonbats calling Americans names. Faramin and Franky are sure to be there in their tea towels. Too bad they can’t have a national day of outrage against islamic terror, worldwide.

  • Faramin

    LT,
    Perhaps you are taking your true spot; aligned with Kat and Eileen, two of the most “intelligent” people commenting here. Congratulations for the new “high” point.

  • http://healthy-elements.com Lynn

    How do Muslims treat detainees?

  • Kat

    Well, I know they beat the living crap out of the Canadian journalist–they gang raped her, broke her pelvis, her ribs, and caved her skull in. They made Daniel Pearl denounce his God and then they cut his head off.
    { Fulani Muslims, use guns and machetes and make no distinction between men, women and children. Celina Kumchak, whose 8-year-old son was killed in an attack, is recovering from blows to her neck and face and the loss of part of her tongue. Nvou Dauda was 7 months pregnant when attackers killed her father-in-law and wounded her husband. In a second attack she was shot in the hand, leg and stomach.
    From the early 1970s, Saddam Hussein and his immediate predecessors razed more than 4,000 villages, evicted at least 1.5 million people and killed upward of a quarter-million individuals.
    In the past decade, an estimated 35,000 people were executed for their religious beliefs alone. Thousands of other -primarily Kurds and Kuwaitis – were disposed of for other reasons. In this unimaginably brutal land, it is possible to be arrested, tortured, even executed for such things as telling political jokes, failing to display the president’s portrait, taking a picture of the Tigris River at sunset and accidentally spilling coffee on a newspaper photo of Saddam.
    In the northern town of Sulaymaniyah the bodies of victims were returned to relatives along with a bill for the bullets used in their executions. Others have been killed by rat poison, beatings, poison gas and hanging. In one particularly grisly episode, the government hung the mutilated bodies of several victims on Liberation Square while Radio Baghdad summoned people to “come and enjoy he feast.”
    Nadhim Kzar, the first chief of Internal State Security under Saddam, reportedly ordered the torture and execution of several thousand people. In 1971, more than four hundred rivals were liquidated in the aptly named Qusr al-Nihayuyah, or “Palace of the End”. Famous for his habit of extinguishing cigarettes in the eyeballs of his victims, Kzar did much to nurture the widespread and sadistic forms of torture practiced today. A sampling of these methods have included roasting victims over flames, amputating noses, limbs and sexual organs, and hammering nails into joints. Children are tortured in front of parents, and suckling infants are held in cells next to mothers and denied food so that their cries will induce confessions. One survivor even reported that the entrance to his torture chamber was cynically marked with a mat that read Welcome. ÖIn occupied Kuwait, for instance, Iraqi soldiers and secret police tortured and summarily executed thousands of citizens before being driven back by advancing Allied troops. General Norman Schwarzkopf could describeÖIraqi forces only as “not of the same human race.”
    Dr. Khalid Shalawi, head physician at Kuwait City’s Mubarak Hospital, said he often wept over what had happened. According to eyewitness accounts from insiders like trauma nurse Basma Yusef, Iraqi torture victims were brought in with cigarette and acid burns, fingernails and facial hair torn out, holes drilled through their kneecaps and intestines inflated with air. Others were kicked in the stomach, electro-shocked on the genitals and suspended upside-down. One man had his ears cut off, while another was burned so badly “he had no skin.” Scores were murdered with ax blows. “The head is open and the brains are out.” Yusef recounted, “Some, their eyes have been taken out.” ÖSome were gang raped and killed, their nude bodies stuffed into trash bins. Rasha Kabundi, a young mother of three, was shot four times in the chest and jaw before the top of her skull was removed with an electric saw. Several pastors and Bible teachers were arrested by Muslim authorities, and in December an “Assemblies of God” pastor, who had converted from Islam thirty years before and was actively involved in the translation of the Living Bible into the Farsi language, was publicly hanged by the Iranian government.”
    The Persian Gulag is presently said to hold at least 5,000 political prisoners in more than 650 prisons and torture centers. Many of these prisoners are held on charges unheard of in Western judicial systems – Moharebeh (enmity to God) and Mofsed fil Arz (corruption on earth). Thousands have been executed in the past decade and, as in neighboring Iraq, the use of torture is widespread.
    According to survivors of Gohar Dasht, one of Iran’s most notorious prisons, torture sessions were (and quite possible still are ) routinely conducted under loudspeakers that broadcast Islamic prayers and religious speeches. Hovering over their suffering victims, Mullahs would snarl, “:Are you wretched? Do you repent?
    And while they do this they yell “Allah Akbar”, “God is Great”.
    One young man held in Tabriz prison recounted: They laid me prone on a bed and fastened me to it and started flogging me. After several lashes, they started hitting the soles of my feet with something like a metal bar. I felt as if my bones were melting and then they flogged my back againÖ[and] with every lash they chanted: ‘Allah-o-Akbar’ (God is great). They were laughing at my painÖDuring the flogging, when I said, “I have a backache,” one of them stepped on my back and twisted the heel of his foot on my backbone. I fainted”.
    When the father of Ali Niaz Baz was granted permission to see his son shortly before his scheduled execution, he was shocked at what he saw – and heard. Unable to walk, his son was supported into the meeting room on the shoulders of two Revolutionary Guards. His complexion was astonishingly pale, his lips severely cracked. With his remaining strength, the young man whispered to his father, “They have taken my blood.” With that he was taken away and shot. Satanic. They wouldn’t just kill him, but had to make him suffer and suffer and suffer, laugh at him, and then take his blood.
    “On “Amputation Day” at Sudan’s Kober Prison, orderlies wave the severed limbs of wrongdoers charged under Shari’a law in front of huge crowds who respond with frenzied chants of “Allahu Akbar” and other Islamic slogansÖ
    In Malaysia’s Pahang State legislators have legalized mandatory whippings and imprisonment for Muslims who apostatize or preach other religions.
    In ‘China’s Sinkiang Province, eyewitnesses report that apostates – in this case Christian converts from Islam – are tied to the ground while soapy water is poured down their throats over a period of three days in order to wash out evil spirits. They are then forced to endure a week-long crash course in the Qur’an (Koran) after which they must recant their faith in Christ or face possible exile or death. ÖCaptions on banners waved during recent trials of Muslim fundamentalists in Cairo warned, “The Muslims are coming,” and, “We are going to change the face of the world by Islam, and rule by the Koran.”}

  • Faramin

    Kat,
    Spot-reading your boring stuff above, I agree, that the current regime in Iran is a criminal regime. No dispute on that as I’ve always believed in that. But believe me, that regime has its own dumb extremist supporters. But so is Bush’s regime. That too is a criminal regime with far more international reach than the Iranian regime and that too, has its own dumb extremist supporters. I’m sure you feel what I’m saying, don’t you?

  • http://healthy-elements.com Lynn

    If only even part of that were true, Muslims truly have forfeited the right to be at all critical of other regimes….at least until they’ve clean up their own regimes.
    When it comes to human suffering, it would seem much more logical, given the above horrors, a National Day of Muslim Outrage be directed at the above Muslim regimes.
    Despite being the strongest power, any transgressions of the Bush regime can seem only a PUDDLE to that OCEAN of Muslim perpetrated horror.

  • Kat

    Yes, Faramin, I wonder why you keep supporting the muslim terrorists. You refuse to see that there is no comparison on earth to the atrocities committed by muslims–NONE.
    But go ahead–consider the truth boring. You truly are a sickening, simpering terrorist sucknozzle.

  • Eileen

    I agree with you Lynn, except I wouldn’t even call it a ripple of a wave in a puddle of That ocean.
    But again, jihad has nothing to do with any so called transgressions by the U.S. If you’re not a Muslim, you’re marked for death or subjugation by the shariah crazies….anywhere and everywhere on the face of the globe. There is no cause and effect related to ‘conduct’. Jihadists are interested in ruling the world and replacing all religions with their own.
    Efforts to ‘expose’ so called mistreatment of Islamists by Americans is a pure propaganda ploy to manipulate western media to focus upon the ‘plight’ of Islam, one of the terror tactics detailed in The Management of Barbarism referenced above.
    I love your and Kat’s idea for a Day of Islamist Outrage, but I think it should be a global instead of national event. Jihadi massacres and butchery are taking place all over the world. It’s time the World speaks back. [It will obviously be a cold day in Hell before moderate Muslims rein in their own. I say this after waiting several years post 9/11 to hear barely a peep.]
    Anyone wish to help me make a DOIO a reality? I’d be happy to work on such a fine cause. Perhaps some major bloggers could help spread the word.. Care to pick a date a few months out, say in September?
    Thanks for the link, LT.

  • Eileen

    I think September 11th would do nicely.

  • Kat

    Great idea ,Eileen. I’d be willing to contribute to such a cause–physically and financially. I think the time has come that we demand accountability of muslims–and not this poor oppressed shit the media promotes while they excuse their barbaric rituals and beliefs.

  • Eileen

    Fabulous – and you are the originator so deserve ALL credit for the idea!
    ALL who wish to participate, please send an email. I have ideas….

  • Brian

    My oh my… Good ol’ Kat reminds me of a spokesperson for the Nazi party. Her ignorant blather about Muslims could easily be tirades against Jews by Goebbels.
    Christians being persecuted? Where??? I don’t see any persecutions against Christians in America. But I do see it against Muslims.

  • kat

    Gee, 3000 dead in one act–how many ot those persecuted on 911, were Christians? And is the persecution OK as long as it’s not in America? Is that why Nigeria is fine with people like you?

  • Eileen

    Brian,
    Quite a few Christians were persecuted to death on 9/11 here in the U.S., along with Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, other Muslims…
    Does death qualify as persecution in your book?

  • Kat

    PS–I notice these islamic nazis like to refer to dessenters as nazis. I think that falls under # 7 of the terrorist agenda: 7. Yell ”foul, out-of-context, personal interpretation, hate crime, Zionist, un- American, inaccurate interpretation of the Quran” anytime Islam is criticized or the Quran is analyzed in the public arena.

  • Name Withheld

    Regarding how islamic terrorists or non democratic countries treat their detaines. I don’t compare how my country treats their detaines with how Saudia Arabia, Uzbekistan, Sudan, North Korea, Iran or some terrorist organisation treat theirs. I believe my country should do better. I prefer to compare it to other democratic countries. We could do exactly what they are doing with their detaines, but if we become them what are we then fighting for?

  • Eileen

    “I believe my country should do better.”
    Your country DOES do better. You’re right, there is absolutely No sane comparison or equivalency to be made.

  • franky

    Please do keep this forum updated on this march/protest. I can’t be the only one desirious of seeing its outcome.

  • Faramin

    Your country DOES do better. You’re right, there is absolutely No sane comparison or equivalency to be made.
    Yeah, may be, but the only negative points are people like you. Believe me, part of the existing hatred towards the US in the world, is as a result of people like you. YOU ARE NOT HELPING THE US, DESPITE WHAT YOU MIGHT THINK. The more you shut up, the more your country will be served. You and people like you who have nothing to do but spying on their political opponents, are counter-affecting the work of some decent Americans. You do seem to live in 1930s. I know you don’t know much about history, I’m referring to the rise of Nazism with the help of stupid and racist Germans of the time.

  • Kat

    ” Like Communism and Nazism, Islamism is a brutal, coercive utopian movement ñ a politicized and virulent interpretation and implementation of Islam — bent on nothing less than total world domination.”

  • Linda Edwards

    I guess since you put it in quotation marks, it must mean it’s true.
    Actually, that’s about as much proof of WMD as Bush needed as an excuse to invade Iraq.