And God rolled His Eyes, continued

And God rolled His Eyes, continued

: Conservative columnist Michele Malkin makes just the point I was making about the real war against religion in the world:

Yes, it’s maddening when politically correct bureaucrats ban nativity scenes and Christmas carols in the name of “diversity” and “tolerance.” We are under attack by Secularist Grinches Gone Wild. But the war on Christmas in America is a mere skirmish.

Around the world, a bloody, repressive war on Christians rages on….

If America’s mainstream media would give the global War on Christianity just a fraction of the attention it pays to the War on Christmas, lives might be saved. And light would be shed on the true heroes of the original religion of peace.

: LATER: I’ll clarify two points: First, as I said in my original post, there are wars against Jews and wars among Muslims not to mention Muslim and Hindu. So, no, I’m not saying that there is a war just against Christianity (and I don’t know whether Malkin is). Second, the point where Malkin and I agree is that in any case, the moaning about a religious war in America is trivializing what is happening elsewhere in the world; it’s silly and unbecoming of people who have the privilege of living in the freedom we have.

Now I’ll repeat what I said in the comments: It’s Christmas Eve. Let’s call a truce, please, and not start religious wars here. Thank you. Merry Christmas.

  • Ann

    Agreed!!! We need to focus on Usama Bin Laden’s fatwah: when he declared war on the US and Israel, he did so under a religious pretext and singled out Zionists and Christians as being infidels. We’re being blamed for things that are not our fault, and since at least 1997 people following his fatwah have been attacking the US. Where is the media focus on this, and the axis or association or agreement or whatever it was between UBL and SH?

  • http://weblog.burningbird.net Shelley

    I think you better check your current events and your near and far term history if you want to start a body count.
    Start with the six million or so jews killed by Christians about half a century or so ago.
    And how many Muslims have died in Iraq since we went in? I mean if we’re counting Christian dominated administrative leadership.
    Would you like to reconsider the fact that Christians have killed more people in the name of Christianity than any other religion?
    You and Malkin — you twist facts, and ignore history. And you do it in a medium where people can fact check you, but you don’t care, because all that matters is the buzz.
    The BuzzMachine, yeah, that’s you.

  • http://www.buzzmachine.com Jeff Jarvis

    Well, Shelley, read my post and I by no means say this is about persecution of Christians but of people of all religions worldwide.

  • Kat

    Gee, and I thought the 6 million Jews died like the more than 6 million Christians died, because of some terrorist paganist named Hitler.
    How come all Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, etc. disappear when sharia arrives?

  • http://weblog.burningbird.net Shelley

    No. Doesn’t work.
    You just pointed to, and quoted from, with approval, one of the most misleading and inflammatory articles that Malkin has written …and said that she’s saying what you’re saying.
    She’s trying to generate hostility against Muslims. Repression against Muslims. Promotion of Christians, above all else. And you say that this supports what you’re saying?
    Did you read what you just quoted?

  • Dan Meyer

    Thought it should be noted that the Scott Elliott quoted in the article is the author (self-proclaimed “blogging Caesar”) of the popular Election Projection web site this past fall.

  • http://spleenville.com/ Andrea Harris

    Merry Christmas, Shelley!

  • lindenen

    “Start with the six million or so jews killed by Christians about half a century or so ago.”
    These people weren’t killed in the name of Christianity. And many of the killers weren’t Christian. Check out a history book some time, genius.

  • lindenen

    “She’s trying to generate hostility against Muslims.”
    This MIGHT be true if she’d just listed crimes perpetrated by Muslims against Christians, but unfortunately for you, the article includes crimes in China, Vietnam, etc. Anyway, the article certainly doesn’t attempt to drum up hatred against Muslims. It’s practically just a list. I know it must be difficult to deal with a reality that doesn’t fit into neat categories of white and Christian and male = oppressor and everyone else = oppressed, but welcome to reality.

  • pok

    Shelley, while your arguments are mathematically correct, they do not support your conclusion. Calling the Holocaust a religious genocide is about as unserious as calling a catfight between Hillary Duff and Lindsay Lohan a religious war simply because both girls have religions. Hitler was a murderer who happened to be a Christian who happened to kill about as many Jews as Christians. The larger point is that Hitler didn’t murder to further Christianity. He murdered to further social-ism.
    That you missed this crucial distinction doesn’t mean that Malkin is right. I am not sure if there is now a war against Christians as serious as the war on terror. But I’m sure there is a difference between killing terrorists who happen to be Muslims and killing people because they are Christians. Unless you seriously believe that US soldiers are killing Iraqis because they are Muslims, I don’t think there is any logical value when you ask “And how many Muslims have died in Iraq since we went in?”

  • Josh

    I’m not very religious nowadays but I know that Hitler’s occult beliefs had nothing to do with Christianity. Unless we are all supposed to believe now that Christianity is a form of demonic pagan worship.
    But yes I agree with shelly, what happened a lifetime ago excuses the crimes of todays terrorist muslims, and we should all just bow our heads and keep still so they can chop our heads off with the least amount of trouble.

  • Karl

    As an aside, people should visit Shelley’s site and click through to the tinfoil project; it’s quite lovely.

  • AG

    I don’t see how Malkin is echoing your point, which is a good thing for you, because it is a column full of her typical b.s.
    She refers to Christianity as the original religion of peace. Give me a break. Islam is also supposedly a religion of peace. Yet the followers of both religions have slaughtered millions throughout history under the guise of spreading their respective religions (the true reasons may have been different but that’s another story). It’s a good thing that the hold of religion has weakened to the extent, at least in the western world, that that’s not likely to happen anymore.
    The irreligious have rarely persecuted the religious. The religious have historically persecuted everyone else.

  • pragmatist

    What Shelly suggests is typical of
    left-wing Islamo-terrorist propaganda.
    The age old “Divide and Conquer”
    technique.
    And poorly read, uncritical Shelly
    fell for it completely. No doubt
    some village is missing their idiot.
    Who has appeared, in textual form,
    here.

  • rosignol

    I think you better check your current events and your near and far term history if you want to start a body count.

    Exactly what is a body count supposed to indicate, other than the relative quality of the tactics and strategy used by each side?

  • Towering Barbarian

    Actually, Speer’s memoirs indicate that Hitler was an atheist. It’s also worth noting that “The White Rose” movement, very much the backbone of the “German Resistance” was organized and run by Christians. But if these facts are inconvenient for Shelley perhaps she would like to remember which religion Joseph Stalin, who murdered more people than Hitler, belonged to? Would she like to discuss the religion of Pol Pot? Perhaps she would care to take a stab at the religious background of Idi Amin, Chairman Mao, and Kim Il? Here’s a hint: None of them were Christian either.
    Mind you, I think it legitimate to bring up the question of why Shelley does not wish to live in the present. If someone is being murdered in front of our eyes does Shelley truly wish to insist that we must pause to “check current events and near and far term history” before we do something about it? Leaving aside the point that what we are talking about *is* current events, just how many history books would Shelley have us read while the murder takes place? Would 2 such texts be enough to give the murderer enough of a headstart to suit Shelley’s tastes or would she prefer 3? o_O
    Sorry, Shelley! That might be a convenient arrangement for the murderer and any wellwishers and accomplices the murderer might have, but such a pause is hardly part of the Social Compact, now is it? :P
    So thanks for your attempts to introduce a red herring, but I’m afraid that instead you merely illuminated the point that both Miss Malkin and Mr Jarvis had made! In the process you also proved why it is that the war on Christmas does deserve to be fought here by its defenders even though it’s a very minor sideshow at the moment. Encourage Leftist atheists who blame the victim today and they will happily follow in the footsteps of their coreligionists Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Idi Amin et al, tomorrow. ^_^;

  • kat

    AG–did you just fall off a turnip truck or what? Would you not call atheist butchers like Stalin,
    Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, and Enver Hoxha who killed and slaughtered religious people at an unheard-of rate,’irreligious’.

  • nikto

    Giving any credence to Malkin’s “work” is
    a litmus test for a fool.
    The results in your case: POSITIVE

  • Eileen

    Agree, Karl, EverKarl. What’s with the piling on? ‘Tis the season? How the hey could Shelley ever hope to respond?
    The real red herring here is the comparison between local religious free speech issues and ‘real’ global religious warfare, by Malkin or anyone else. Of COURSE the speech issues are thereby rendered mere, multiple rolls of the eye and ‘fights for the sake of fighting’. Those silly nutjobs. I doubt you’ll ever see a comparison between the right to say ‘f’ on broadcast news and any other global, more ‘serious’ issues in the same series of posts.
    Jeff, maybe I caught Your cold.

  • Tim
  • http://nineteen19.blogspot.com RealTM

    Jeff, I really don’t think Malkin is making the same point you are…
    Do you really believe there is a global War on Christianity?

  • http://www.advicegoddess.com godless Amy Alkon

    First of all, merry Christmas to all of you who celebrate it, from atheist me. This is ridiculous. I like to see all the trees and lights in stores, and wish all my friends who celebrate Christmas a merry Christmas — just as some of them wish me a happy “un-holiday.” I know they celebrate it, I sincerely hope they’re happy…no biggie. I would venture many atheists feel this way. Unlike the Christian right, we don’t want to impose on you; we just don’t want you imposing your irrational belief in god on us. Getting back to the topic: What I do not like to see is merging of church and state. It’s called CHRISTmas, not wintermas, or Santamas. It’s a Christian holiday. I’ll thank you to keep Christmas trees out of public buildings (and the same goes for menorahs or other religious symbols) and out of the public schools.

  • http://www.advicegoddess.com Amy Alkon

    (imposing on us in government buildings, I mean.)

  • DaveP.

    Yeah, Amy… because America was NEVER founded by people who wished to practice their religon publicly, and include it in their public lives. Not a single Founding Father or Framer or Minuteman would have EVER have allowed such a public display of faith- they would have recognized it four the tyranny it was and fought against it. How could we EVER have betrayed their sacrifice in such a way- by putting up a manger scene on public lands? They would have been shocked…that they had sacrificed their lives for our freedom of religon.

  • Craig Bodeker

    Take people like Shelly. Understand their compassion. If there is any conflict between white/non-white which side does she choose? Man vs. Woman? Christian vs. Non-Christain? Our “education” system for years has tought that the root of all conflict lies in the inherent racism,sexism, and other prejudices that simply “occur” in white men. They can’t help it, they’re born that way! I’ll bet that Shelly would be much happier if Ms.Malkin were a big, mean white Man instead of the petite, informed, logical and courageous asian Woman she is. It’s brain-dead folks like Shelly with their labor-union mentality that cause most conflict in the US today.

  • Oligonicella

    DaveP.:
    You miss the point, m’thinks. There has *always* been a loud and long cry from the religious majority in this country whenever anyone tried to celebrate Halloween or Solstice or any other uncommon religious holiday via the government, mostly schools. *Yet* they want those same people to politely sit quietly and allow *their* religious celebrations in the same institutions.
    It’s an all or none thing. If you allow Christian deco and rites, then Buddhist, Pagan, and yes, Athiest “rites” are to be allowed.

  • http://home.rochester.rr.com/bitheads/ Bithead

    A world used to darkness, you see, will invariably fight to see that darkness continued.

  • catnip

    Oligonicella/Alkon
    I believe you both miss the point. 82% of Americans are Christians. The country was founded on Judeo/Christian beliefs. LOVE IT OR LIVE IT.

  • http://oodja.blogspot.com oodja

    DaveP.,
    You might want to consider reading your history books every once in a while. Most Americans didn’t even celebrate Christmas – an English custom that fell out of favor after the American Revolution – until the second half of the 19th Century. Congress actually used to meet on Christmas Day!
    Catnip,
    The Treaty of Tripoli, 1796-1797:
    “As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,–as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquillity of Musselmen,–and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mohammedan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever interrupt the harmony existing between the two countries.”
    Whoops! I guess the Founding Fathers should get the hell out of our country then, eh?

  • Ptolemy

    Those opposed to Christmas displays and acknowledgment from the government have the upper hand in the constitutional argument, unfortunately. All that can be hoped for is that they can lower their hostility to it and “allow” the majority to express themselves while taking pride in thier civic monuments at the same time. Its not likely that oooooodja would be so giving however. It seems a losing war and they won’t settle for just banning government displays. Next they will boycott businesses that display and eventually protest religious buildings that display until they are no longer even remotely reminded (bothered) about what time of year it is.

  • http://weblog.burningbird.net Shelley

    Well, let’s see: Christians really didn’t kill Jews in Germany — and all those people weren’t really Jews, anyway. And Hitler was a pagan (or is that atheist) so it wasn’t really the controlling Christian dominated people of Germany doing the killing.
    Now, exactly how many references to the Creator exist in Mein Kampf?
    “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”
    But them, this point is mute, because the only reason I wrote my comment was because I’m prejudiced against Malkin, because she’s not a big, white, man (and if Craig knew my history of writing, he’d realize what a foolish statement that is).
    Eileen and RealTM had the better arguments (yes better than mine)– what does Malkin’s cry of ‘global war of Christianity’ really have to do with your discussion about freedom of local religious practices?
    My issue is that there is no ‘global war’ against Christianity, regardless. And to think that there is, is to generate support for the oppression of other beliefs — starting with atheists here, and Muslims here and abroad.
    Malkin is promoting the very thing you say you’re trying to defend against, Jeff. She deliberately creates division, and does so to misdirect people’s attention from other issues, and to attract buzz. She generates a myth that Christians are hounded and persecuted globally, and that this is a war of Christians against the godless atheists and Muslims.
    And if anyone disagrees, why they’re prejudiced against her — small, female, asian — or they’re supporting terrorists, or their left-wing ‘nuts’.
    How does this in anyway support what you’re saying?

  • dpt

    The biggest problem facing Muslims is not the some in the West may be trying to stir up hatred against them, but it comes from within. 100,000 or more have been murdered in Algeria by Muslim extremist, and we know all too well the oppression and violence Muslims encounter throughout the world at the hands of their brethren. It is a smoke-screen, covering up real hatred & violence, to say some in the West are formenting hatred against violence.
    On the question of religious display in the public square….I know some ardent secularist and atheists are offended by religious symbols and expressions, but why should we care? We have a word for those “offended” by such: bigots.

  • dpt

    I have read 2-3 million Catholic Poles were murdered by the Nazi hate machine.

  • http://www.buzzmachine.com Jeff Jarvis

    Oh, for God’s sake, people: It’s Christmas Eve. Can we please call a truce and not set off religious war here? Thank you. Merry Christmas.

  • jeremy in NYC

    Ptolemy, where do you get that illogical conclusion? As one of those who (like Amy above)wants Christmas out of government, I have absolutely no objection to any private display of same.
    I actually enjoy the Christmas season. I don’t think that Christmas should be banished from sight and with (literally) a couple of moonbat exceptions, I have not heard anyone disagree. I just don’t want my government getting involved. Let me put it this way: I have no problem living in a majority Christian country, but I don’t want to live in an “officially Christian country.” I like our government not to take sides.
    And I have a question for those who I believe, from watching Jeff’s comments, are small-government conservatives yet are on the other side from me on this point: If government should be smaller and less involved in our lives, why is promoting Christmas one of the vital areas that government needs to be involved in? This is not meant to be snarky – I really am looking for the rationale, because I truly don’t understand the interplay.

  • jeremy in NYC

    Oh, and keeping in line with Jeff’s comment, which was posted while I was typing my response:
    Merry Christmas, everybody!

  • dpt

    Jeff Jarvis,
    Nice reminder….have to work today and with year-end deadlines, I have lost temporary sight of the Christmas Holiday.
    Merry Christmas!

  • http://weblog.burningbird.net Shelley

    Jeff, no. Doesn’t work.
    You bring in the comment, you fan the flames of debate and then you come along and say, well, I didn’t mean this to happen and let’s get along because it’s Christmas Eve Therefore setting yourself up as the wise man in the very midst of the flames you helped start.
    As Karl said in his weblog, why get into a comment thread when there is no communication between those who comment?
    Better things to do.

  • Angelos

    “…82% of Americans are Christians…”
    Or say so for the purpose of polls.
    How many go to church regularly? How many pray regularly. How many strictly follow all tenets? Are these people serious Christians, or a la carte?
    Would you count me as a Christian, because I was baptized in a Lutheran church? Hell, I was baptized in a Greek Orthodox church too. And I care about neither.
    The reason so may people seem anti-Christian is simple: the public faces of Christianity (and organized religion in general) are so easy to despise. Judge Roy Brown anyone? The Bakkers, Falwells, Robertsons, etc? The morons who protest outside of Planned Parenthood? Get a real job.
    If there’s contention, it’s against them.

  • http://spleenville.com/ Andrea Harris

    The Baby Jesus loves you, Angelos!

  • Quentin

    Is Michelle Malkin trying to scare us or something? This is the first time I’ve ever heard anything about a global war against christianity. Maybe she needs to alert the U.S. defenders of the faith and encourage them to take preventive action before it is too late. It’s scary, Malkin, creepy.

  • Diane Ezer

    Oh, for God’s sake, people: It’s Christmas Eve. Can we please call a truce and not set off religious war here? Thank you. Merry Christmas.
    Jeff, when you cite Michelle Malkin’s “hate-filled” (to use her favorite term) nonsense to support a dubious point, and when someone (Shelley) disagrees with you using logic, it’s not quite fair to call off the discussion when her logic threatens to topple your house of cards.
    I read the original Malkin piece and it is the usual garbage. The overwhelming number of cites which purport to “prove” that Christmas is under attack come from Vdare.com, a hysterical website that takes a legitimate issue (immigration control and its discontents) and slimes and distorts it with racial — and religious — mania. (See their “annual Christophobia awards”, most of which turn out to be bogus claims of anti-Christmas incidents. Last year, I sent Peter Brimelow a list of Christmas activities in NYC and he never answered.)
    What do Malkin’s citations prove? Not a thing.
    Regarding Hitler, it is true that he did nothing in the name of Christianity and that his belief system was a mishmash, but the fact is that everything he said about Jews was inculcated by the monks of the Catholic schools he was sent to as a boy in 19th century Austria.
    QUOTE: “Adolf Hitler had visited the 1934 performance, [of the Oberammergau Passion play] giving it his eager blessing. “It is vital that the Passion play be continued at Oberammergau; for never has the menace of Jewry been so convincingly portrayed as in this presentation of what happened in the time of the Romans,” Hitler had said. “There one sees Pontius Pilate, a Roman racially and intellectually so superior, that he stands out like a firm, clean rock in the middle of the whole muck and mire of Jewry.” (Link:
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/newsletter/2004/feb20.html)
    Where did he get that, I wonder?
    We should all be very happy that the US has a secular, commercialized and rather bland Christmas and that no one takes the sectarian stuff *too* seriously, including the supposed Christians among us. It makes for civic peace.
    Merry Christmas, and I mean it.

  • Diane Ezer

    PS: The link that Jeff provides to Malkin’s Townhall column that begins, “Yes, its maddening…” does NOT contain links to Vdare, as I had said. Nor does the blog entry on Malkin’s actual website linking to the Townhall article. However, the version that appeared on Vdare.com’s site does: http://vdare.com/malkin/041221_crossfire.htm
    Also, Malkin doesn’t dare touch the issue of why the Christians in Iraq are quaking in their boots. (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=595865)
    It is because the United States removed their protector (Saddam Hussein) and has replaced him with gang-ruled anarchy. Soon this will be replaced by a Shi’a Islamic government, under which they will probably fare very badly. Thus an ancient Christian community will be destroyed, all due to the best of intentions.

  • Quentin

    Daine Ezer,
    The Christians of Iraq, especially Mosul, are tonight afraid to go to church to celebrate Christmas not in spite of ‘the best of intentions’, as you put it, but directly due to the flagrant, criminal incompetence of the foreign occupying forces.

  • Ptolemy

    The Christians of Iraq are terrified because of the savage muslim terrorists (Michael Moore’s “Minutemen”).

  • Diane Ezer

    Quentin: and I thought the British could understand irony.
    Ptolemy: Yes, they are savage, and Saddam Hussein had them pretty well contained. Now what was it we went to war against, then?

  • Bruce Hayden

    You may not like Malkin, but I have seen nothing to refute her point here, which is that in other parts of the world, Christains are dying for their faith.
    As to Iraq, I have seen no instances where our troops killed solely because those killed were Muslim. Rather, mostly, they were shooting at our guys, and, in some instances, were collateral damage. But the reality is that almost all of the sectarian violence today in Iraq is Muslim on Muslim. Sunni killing Shiite, trying to incite a religious war, in order to sidetrack elections.

  • Kat

    {Jehuda Bauer, Professor of Holocaust Studies at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, describes the real “god” of Hitler and the Nazis in his article, “The Trauma of the Holocaust: Some Historical Perspectives,” by saying: “”They wanted to go back to a pagan world, beautiful, naturalistic, where natural hierarchies based on the supremacy of the strong would be established, because strong equaled good, powerful equaled civilized. The world did have a kind of God, the merciless God of nature, the brutal God of races, the oppressive God of hierarchies.” In other words, definitely non-Christian. }Shelley’s kind of god, I think.
    Historian Paul Johnson wrote that Hitler hated Christianity with a passion, adding that shortly after assuming power in 1933, Hitler told Hermann Rauschnig that he intended “to stamp out Christianity root and branch.”
    As Hitler grew in power, he made other anti-Christian statements. For example, he was quoted in Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, by Allan Bullock, as saying: “I’ll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews.”
    It seems Hitler, like many modern-day politicians, spoke out of both sides of his mouth. And when he didn’t, his lackeys did. It may have been political pandering, just like many of our current politicians who invoke God’s name to gain support. }
    Anyways, Merry Christmas all, and a blessed Christmas Eve–I am off to mass and then I serve up a huge Christmas Eve feast of perogies and lots of yummy stuff. God Bless .

  • Quentin

    Diane Ezer,
    I am neither British nor do I understand (your) irony. Excuse me if I misunderstood you.

  • http://www.buzzmachine.com Jeff Jarvis

    In honor of Christmas Eve, I am closing the comments on this post. Merry Christmas. You’re welcome.