The debate

The debate

: At this point, the discussion in Iraq is forging no new ground. It’s repetitive. This is a rerun with motion added.

: “That answer almost made me want to scowl.” Best line Bush has had in either debate.

Better than scowling is getting pissed and cutting off Charlie Gibson.

Otherwise, the guy is doing mental botox. He’s doing everything he can not to move a single facial muscle.

: “I hear there’s rumors on the internets that we’re going to have a draft,” says the Bushes. “We’re not going to have a draft. Period.” They can’t repeat that enough. And he repeated it: “We’re not going to have a draft so long as I’m the President.” Kerry said, “I don’t support a draft.”

: Kerry will never use the phrase “global test” again but he keeps doing the alliance tango and that keeps bothering me. We cannot hinge our defense and policy on the French.

: Both Kerry and Gibson mucked it up: It’s not a question of if but a question of when, guys. Get it straight.

: Bush should be bragging about tomorrow’s election in Afghanistan. Kerry should be acknowledging the value of building democracy in the world.

: “The National Journal named Senator Kennedy the most liberal senator of all,” says Bush.

Uh, don’t we mean Senator Kerry.

That’s OK. They do look like, those guys from Mass.

: Wonkette says: “Also: Kerry is the first presidential candidate in history to go out of his way to remind people he’s a lawyer.” He also goes out of his way to say he’s an altar boy.

: Usually at these town hall things, the people they pick are dorky. This bunch is not.

: Jet lag. Jet lag. I’m zoning. The environment always does that to me. Trees. Owls. Birkenstocks.

: Stem cell. Kerry’s issue. Supreme Court: Kerry again for me.

: Mistakes. The lady asks Bush about mistakes. We’ll see whether he has an answer this time. Well, actually, he didn’t but at least he didn’t do the hummuda-hummuda thing again. Kerry uses this to sing the Coke theme again — “true global coalition;” another mistake.

: Draw. Which is to say nobody wins, including us. More lively. Both were more in command.

Come to think of it, if it’s a draw, then it’s a Bush victory, since this time, he was coming up from behind.

: At the end, the candidates block Charlie’s Teleprompter. Now that’s my favorite moment.

The questions from the audience were better than anything Charlie would have given us.

  • http://blogs.rny.com/sbw/ sbw

    9:35 pm. Whether or not it is repetitive. Kerry is coming across as a dissembling sneak, as some one who makes the best judgment possible at the time.
    Gawd is someone going to get exercised fisking Kerry. Low blows everywhere!

  • http://blogs.rny.com/sbw/ sbw

    It was DEMOCRAT Charlie Rangel’s bill to reinstate the draft that was defeated 400+ to 2 a few days ago.
    General Shinseki believed in the big armor army. An old style army. He was the wrong man who wanted the wrong army.

  • http://blogs.rny.com/sbw/ sbw

    Debating technique. Kerry keeps his zingers for the rebuttals which precludes ANY response by Bush until some time in the future.
    Yet another reason not to like him.

  • http://blogs.rny.com/sbw/ sbw

    Instigating class warfare. Another reason not to support Kerry.
    Neither does Kerry appreciate that throwing money at something isn’t always the answer.

  • http://blogs.rny.com/sbw/ sbw

    Kerry: One percent of America got so much tax relief.
    You dissembling git! They PAID the most taxes, hand over fist.

  • Ibanez

    Was that last question directed to Kerry to talk directly into the camera about tax cuts planted? Come on now, that was a soft one.

  • http://blogs.rny.com/sbw/ sbw

    Interestingly, cutting the deficit too fast costs jobs by taking investment money out of the job creating market. Anyone study economics around here?

  • http://blogs.rny.com/sbw/ sbw

    Kerry: Vote for me. Someone else will pay for it.

  • http://blogs.rny.com/sbw/ sbw

    Outsourcing is less than 3 percent of job losses over the last three years. Talk instead about structural job losses — people losing jobs because of technology.

  • http://blogs.rny.com/sbw/ sbw

    Kerry: “Never let the terrorists change the Constitution in a way that disadvantages Americans.”
    Finally, a phrase worth remembering and a point for Kerry.

  • Tim

    It’s not a question of if but a question of when, guys. Get it straight.
    It’s been the same question for 30 years.

  • http://blogs.rny.com/sbw/ sbw

    Kerry gets another point on abortion. “I can’t take an article of faith and legislate it.” Sound answer.

  • http://blogs.rny.com/sbw/ sbw

    Bush gets a point for wanting a good adoption law.

  • http://blogs.rny.com/sbw/ sbw

    The debate questions ended with a weak question and a stale fizzle.

  • http://blogs.rny.com/sbw/ sbw

    There are several times that Kerry has respected someone for something. “I repect the President for that.” in such a tone that doesn’t convince me he means it.

  • http://blogs.rny.com/sbw/ sbw

    So Jeff thinks the debate was a tie. We hope not. Who wants the Supreme Court to work on Wednesday.
    I think the challenger’s positions don’t stand up to scrutiny. That is no draw.

  • Mike NYC

    trees. owls. birkenstocks. gee, jeff, if only you could be so intelligent about all the issues.

  • http://iraqiblogtechsupport.blogspot.com/ Tom (American Voter)

    Bush is in free fall on InTrade. There was no movement like this during the first debate.
    Bush 2004

  • http://RuthCalvo Ruth

    Sad to say, probably the most telling observation is that the president could manage for the most part to keep his face blank.
    Rehash of lots of mis-characterizations of Kerry’s stands. The hard core shrubbery will continue to try to mis-characterize. Makes you want to do the old style Gore sigh. Disrespect for truth is a sad style for an administration. Cheney took it to the extremes (never saw this guy before, never said alQuaeda was associated with Iraq), so at least the shrub backed off some.
    Mainly, this is the administration that killed the goose that laid the golden egg – the consumer.
    There may be a large unthinking bloc of voters that will go for the wishy-washy characterization of Kerry. But if you recall that the shrub opposed the 9/11 commission, now halfheartedly pretends to support it. That the Clean Air Act provides for new reporting that reports a small proportion of the existing air pollution, ‘voluntary’ reporting by industry, making it look like less if you persist adamantly in being ignorant.
    That refusal to supervise food processing, leaving it to voluntary inspection produces lower figures and larger numbers of food poisoning. Hey, if you believe in eviscerating the protections of the public, this is your administration.
    And if you watched the Defense Appropriations hearings, you know that the administration tried to lay off the reductions in force prior to 9/11, under the Powell/Cheney proposals, to Sen. Kerry. And that this administration sought further to reduce forces. Prior to 9/11. They didn’t hear the briefings on the Al Quada threat, either.
    We can’t afford to defend our own borders because of the hotbed we’ve created in Iraq.
    We all heard Sen. Kerry say that there would not be any veto of our actions by any foreign powers, and the ‘global test’ referred to the belief of the American public in their leaders. no wonder the shrubbery can’t understand that, they don’t know what it would be like to believe in their own leadership. They don’t.
    If you choose to believe lies, what are you gaining? I choose not to.

  • Kat

    Ruth, when you believe a flip flopper, one of his many positions has to be a lie. You can’t hold one view today and the opposite tomorrow, and call them both truths. The General Shinseki thing was a blatant lie.
    I choose not to believe Kerryr but only because he is a liar.
    Do you know how stupid shrubbery sounds? Sounds like you need a shave.

  • http://myblahg.blogspot.com Robert McClelland

    President Kerry. Better get used to calling him that from now on.
    A couple of things that stood out. On re-importing drugs from Canada, Bush had nothing. His case about safety fell flat. I mean, does anyone really believe that you won’t be getting safe drugs from Canada?
    The draft. They both said no damned way but for Bush it will come down to whether or not he is seen as having any credibility. One of the Dem bloggers (Atrios, Pandagon or maybe Oliver Willis) has a link to a survey of young people that shows 51% of them think a draft is coming if Bush is re-elected.

  • http://myblahg.blogspot.com Robert McClelland

    President Kerry. Better get used to calling him that from now on.
    A couple of things that stood out. On re-importing drugs from Canada, Bush had nothing. His case about safety fell flat. I mean, does anyone really believe that you won’t be getting safe drugs from Canada?
    The draft. They both said no damned way but for Bush it will come down to whether or not he is seen as having any credibility. One of the Dem bloggers (Atrios, Pandagon or maybe Oliver Willis) has a link to a survey of young people that shows 51% of them think a draft is coming if Bush is re-elected.

  • http://myblahg.blogspot.com Robert McClelland

    Here’s a link to that poll. I have to say it’s a pretty good flea in the ear the Dems initiated on this issue and I doubt there’s really much Bush can do to squash it.

  • Kat

    The Dems initiated a phoney poll and I’m gonna get excited?
    And Clinton spent 8 years not getting third world drugs from Canada. No thanks, I prefer made in America–not some cheap shit made without any quality control in some filthy factory by child workers in sweat shops and then shipped to Canada.

  • http://lonewacko.com The Lonewacko Blog

    Outsourcing is less than 3 percent of job losses over the last three years.
    Bush’s guest worker plan would have no wage-related restrictions other than the minimum wage and would be open to “nurses, teachers, high-tech workers” and others. If you’ve got a similar job, stock up on Maruchan Instant Noodles while there’s still time.
    The questions from the audience were horrible. Next time: all lawyers.
    Live blogged here.

  • chuck

    Gotta disagree with you on this one. Kerry is beginning to look like an a**hole. Sorry. And Kaus is spinning to himself, bad habit to fall into. That said, loyalists will stick with Kerry, the few remaining sane democrats are going to go over to Bush.

  • http://dougkenline.blogspot.com/ Doug Kenline

    Libertarian Candidate Michael Badnarik Arrested Outside Debate
    http://www.badnarik.org/supporters/blog/
    .

  • http://www.tonypierce.com tony

    how many points does bush lose for not knowing that he claimed part-ownership of a timber company in his 2001 fed tax return?

  • http://www.tonypierce.com tony
  • http://www.tonypierce.com tony

    how many points does bush lose for flipping out, breaking the rules, and interrupting the moderator from asking his followup question?

  • http://www.tonypierce.com tony

    and finally, how can you call it a draw when after all that we’ve gone through from 9/11 to no wmd to no osb to the biggest surplus turning into the biggest deficit
    the only mistake that the president will own up to is a few low level appointments of people to boards that we have never heard of?
    as bill maher said in his monologue tonight directly following the debates, he can think of three bush mistakes
    the last debate, this debate, and the next debate.
    youre grading on a curve, mr jarvis, just because the president did well compared to the extremely low expectations that we have for him, it is still a debate for President of the United States
    not for hall monitor at the special ed school across town.

  • debra

    I will disagree with you thrice.
    1. I think Kerry won on substance and style, but since the bar for Bush was so low it will seem that he did better than he did. It is misleading
    2. Even if I grant you a draw you are wrong about who benefits from a draw. Kerry had momentum going in and maintains its. He has proved he is presidiential, firm, won’t wilt and keep his cool under pressure.
    George Bush can’t keep his temper under control. And I will say this as a woman who knew Rick Lazio lost the election when he acted like a bully in the third debate with Hillary. Woman no longer need to be assured Kerry is strong; his debate performances have shown that. Woman like strength but they don’t like bullies and Bush’s behavior around that incident with Gibson, when he violated a rule he insisted on, showed us just that he’s a bully. No wonder that his attempts at diplomacy were such a failure; he temper and his arrogance are right there at the surface.
    3. Do you notice how many right wing posters there are on this site. They sense a sympathizer on this site. That said, if you actually vote for Kerry then I will take you out to dinner at Cafe Des Artistes when I return from helping to carry Florida for the Best Man.

  • bob

    Kerry did well as usual. Bush went from scowl to smirk, and tried to cover it up his previous performance with obviously preprepared self-deprecating humor. He did a lot of shouting and ignored the people in the audience.
    Why couldn’t Bush answer the “mistakes” question??? He seems unable to admit any mistakes ever. The woman asked for three mistakes he’s made, and he started ranting about Saddam. Unhinged from reality, and rather arrogant for someone who is begging for our vote.
    Some on the right are celebrating “Hey, our guy didn’t act like he had a lobotomy! He controlled his face better than a toddler! Hip Hip Horray”
    Pretty sad. Gotta give this one to the K-man.

  • Franky

    Nice little touch when Bush winked to someone during Kerry’s answer on Iran. This is the man who’s serious about the war on terror, can’t stop pissing around for 90 minutes?
    There was a time when it was despairing democrats who appeared to be going over to Bush’s side. Now, after these two debates, it’s moderate republicans who are going over to Kerry and the democrats are solidly behind Kerry (cue endless stories of how “I voted for Clinton, but I’m voting for Bush”).
    I think Kerry was clearly the winner, but then I’m slightly biased. Viewing the undecideds out there, I would say it was also a Kerry win by default. He kept his momentum from the first debate, and Bush failed to land a single knockout punch. If these debates have an effect, I think Kerry’s going to win.

  • Franky

    Nice little touch when Bush winked to someone during Kerry’s answer on Iran. This is the man who’s serious about the war on terror, can’t stop pissing around for 90 minutes?
    There was a time when it was despairing democrats who appeared to be going over to Bush’s side. Now, after these two debates, it’s moderate republicans who are going over to Kerry and the democrats are solidly behind Kerry (cue endless stories of how “I voted for Clinton, but I’m voting for Bush”).
    I think Kerry was clearly the winner, but then I’m slightly biased. Viewing the undecideds out there, I would say it was also a Kerry win by default. He kept his momentum from the first debate, and Bush failed to land a single knockout punch. If these debates have an effect, I think Kerry’s going to win.

  • Franky

    I just saw the clip where Bush lost his rag (I must have been grabbing a beer from the fridge). That exchange alone pushes this one in to a clear win for Kerry. “That’s why I’ll be a better commander in chief” said calmly looking in to the eyes of a man-boy acting petulantly.

  • http://www.elflife.com/ carsonfire

    I think Bush was clearly the winner, but I’m biased, too. Good for us to acknowledge that. I really think that the Bush/Gore debates were like that, too. Gore supporters teased about Bush’s verbal flubs and goofy personality, and Bush supporters goofed on Al’s chameleon-like appearances and mis-timed populism.
    Bush never really “knocked out” Gore, either, so even if Bush doesn’t knock out Kerry in the last debate, I’m not so sure that this will have the definitive effect on the final outcome. Besides, Kerry’s been particularly terrible on the stump, and after the last debate, it’s back to the stump with him. Strategically, this will give Bush time to mop up any lingering mess left from the debates, and time, albeit short, to put Kerry back on the defensive.
    Biggest howler moment for me last night was when Kerry did the “I’ll look you straight in the eye” (paraphrasing). He did it too quick, like a guy who knows he’s ready to say anything, anyway, so I almost fell out of my chair laughing. I bet if you asked him tomorrow, he won’t even remember what rate of income he promised not to raise taxes on.
    Unfortunately, this is the “confidence” that makes his side think he’s winning these debates. Not that both sides don’t make understandable mistakes with facts and figures, but for all the talk of Bush being a “misleader”, he’s never misled on his *intentions*, whereas Kerry’s intentions are too many-sided for them all to be true.

  • Jesse

    Franky – I caught that little wink too. But after watching the debate over again, I don’t think it was a sly, intentional wink. While sitting in his chair listening to Senator Kerry, Bush winked a few times to no one in particular at various stages of the night. It’s a strange twitching thing he’s got going on. Almost like a muscle spasm. Or perhaps it was from his Herculean effort to not scowl. At least that’s my take on it.
    On another note: How the hell could the moderator allow Bush to interrupt him and take control like that? Have some balls Charlie, rules are rules.

  • Jesse

    Man that last question was a doozy, eh? Kind of like that killer interview question that always gets asked: “What would you say your weaknesses are?” And that chick actually asked for THREE mistakes.
    Did any of you honestly think that Bush would answer the question as asked? He rambled something about how historians would view him, and then talked about having hired some of the wrong people. That’s only two mistakes… well, one and a half really.

  • Walter E. Wallis

    Allowing that mistakes question in was a big bloop. Why ask the President to write the next democrat campaign ad?
    Re-importation of U.S. made drugs from Canada is just a sellout of intellectual property rights, since Canada and other countries sell U.S. made drugs cheaper by threatening to void the patents of those companies who do not sell to them cheap.
    Kerry is against outsourcing except for energy, lumber, defense and voting.

  • Michael

    Any guesses on who the erroneous appointees are that Presdient Bush referred to?

  • Bart

    Not sure if Dubya will be bragging about those Afghan elections after all. An Afghan voter interviewed on NPR today said the security measure in place to keep people from voting more than once is a magic marker slash on the hand. And the ink IS NOT PERMANENT. He was able to rub the mark off 5 minutes after voting.
    What a joke.

  • Kat

    Yes, the moderator should have done his job–like ABC has ordered. After all ABC has admitted it is pimping for the leftist. Allowing Bush to interrupt–the nerve. ABC must do its job to brainwash kerry followers.
    An internal memo written by ABCNEWS Political Director Mark Halperin admonishes ABC staff: During coverage of Democrat Kerry and Republican Bush not to “reflexively and artificially hold both sides ‘equally’ accountable.”
    The controversial internal memo obtained by DRUDGE, captures Halperin stating how “Kerry distorts, takes out of context, and mistakes all the time, but these are not central to his efforts to win.”
    But Halperin claims that Bush is hoping to “win the election by destroying Senator Kerry at least partly through distortions.”
    “The current Bush attacks on Kerry involve distortions and taking things out of context in a way that goes beyond what Kerry has done,” Halperin writes.
    Halperin’s claim that ABCNEWS will not “reflexively and artificially hold both sides ‘equally’ accountable” set off sparks in St. Louis where media players gathered to cover the second presidential debate.
    Halperin states the responsibilities of the ABCNEWS staff have “become quite grave.”
    In August, Halperin declared online: “This is now John Kerry’s contest to lose.”
    x x x x x
    Halperin Memo Dated Friday October 8, 2004
    It goes without saying that the stakes are getting very high for the country and the campaigns – and our responsibilities become quite grave
    I do not want to set off (sp?) and endless colloquy that none of us have time for today – nor do I want to stifle one. Please respond if you feel you can advance the discussion.
    The New York Times (Nagourney/Stevenson) and Howard Fineman on the web both make the same point today: the current Bush attacks on Kerry involve distortions and taking things out of context in a way that goes beyond what Kerry has done.
    Kerry distorts, takes out of context, and mistakes all the time, but these are not central to his efforts to win.
    We have a responsibility to hold both sides accountable to the public interest, but that doesn’t mean we reflexively and artificially hold both sides “equally” accountable when the facts don’t warrant that.
    I’m sure many of you have this week felt the stepped up Bush efforts to complain about our coverage. This is all part of their efforts to get away with as much as possible with the stepped up, renewed efforts to win the election by destroying Senator Kerry at least partly through distortions.
    It’s up to Kerry to defend himself, of course. But as one of the few news organizations with the skill and strength to help voters evaluate what the candidates are saying to serve the public interest. Now is the time for all of us to step up and do that right.
    — Drudge

  • Kat

    Thank God the Australian media failed in its attempt to go soft on terrorists. Hopefully, Americans are as smart as Aussies.

  • dries

    debra – remember to vote in both places: NY & FL. thousands of democrats did so, 4 years ago.

  • Lisa

    “The President’s job isn’t to win the war. The President’s job is to win the peace.” That was the best line of the night. Who made it America’s job to spread democracy around the world? Let’s not kid ourselves by saying that’s why we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq to begin with. That’s what we have to tell ourselves now that we’re in it up to our eyeballs with no meaningful end justification.
    Let’s not actually pretend that anyone cared about the Iraqi and Afghan people’s freedom until that seemed like to only way to sell the Americans on the war.

  • Catherine

    Was anyone offended that Kerry looked around the room and said it was clear to him that no one in the room besides him, Bush and Gibson make more than $200K a year?
    How come he (or Bush) doesn’t mention that in MA you can DECLINE the tax cut and he didn’t?
    ALL you WMD people above me miss the fact that the report eviserates Kerry’s “plan.” It states that Sadaam had the UN, French, Germans and the Russians on the payroll (using oil+for+food program) to bribe them to remove the sanctions at which point he would start up his bio weapons program again. It was a 10 year shell game that the UN Security Council members from France and Russia were in on. SANCTIONS was not and would never work, DIPLOMACY WITH THE UN was not and would NEVER work and the plan was to stop the sanctions and restart his program (a program even his own GENERALS and SCIENTISTS did NOT think was halted) with intent to destroy the U.S. It’s all right there in PDF format folks.
    Bottom line on Kerry his plan to “bring our allies (i.e. France, Germany, Russia and…China?) to the table and let “Hans Blix do his job,” IS NOW PROVEN THAT IT WOULD NEVER HAVE WORKED SINCE A) SADDAM REFUSED COMPLETE INSPECTIONS AND KEPT KICKING THEM OUT B)THE FRENCH, GERMANS & RUSSIA JUST WANTED TO WAIT OUT THE SANCTIONS SO THEY COULD CASH IN ON SADDAM’S OIL PROMISES (France was promised oil rights on untapped wells).
    What allies is Kerry speaking of?

  • Catherine

    Lisa – what does “win the peace mean?” Do you know? It’s another wishy-washy word that means NOTHING. There is no such thing. I think you “win peace” in the same world that includes dancing unicorns.

  • Bart

    Kat — Good memo by ABC, almost as juicy as some of the stuff FOX sends to its employees.

  • Soybomb

    Why is it that the Kerry and Edwards always have to start answering the previous question before answering the question just asked? Bush and Cheney never seem to dodge the questions this way. They let their last answer stick and move on with the current question.

  • Penschool

    [RE: ABC Memo]
    Hey, I bet I could print out a memo, black out some lines, scan it back into my computer, and post it as evidence of something. Cool!

  • Eileen

    Catherine – It was always clear to me that France, Germany and Russia opposed U.S. efforts in the U.N. and beyond based purely on their deals with Saddam re oil. Now it is also clear why former U.N. weapons inspecter Scott Ritter was so vociferously anti-war, too. (Remember how much air time HE received from the Big Guys?) Turns out the financier of Ritter’s little movie on Iraq was an Iraqi who held one of Saddam’s ‘vouchers’. What a sham! Hmmm….wonder if ‘ole Hans had a stake also? Did I hear he’d been nominated for a Nobel PEACE prize!?
    For the WMDers to continue to rabidly hold onto their oh-so-boring ‘we didn’t find them, so, wrong time, wrong war’ is naivite at its best.
    I sent a letter to the French Foreign Ministry reminding them that their ‘appeasement’ and non-intervention policies apparently haven’t bought them much protection vis a vis the two French journalists still held by the thugs. Ah well. What’s life worth compared to liquid gold?
    With allies like this, who needs enemies? When one otherwise considers Kerry’s long-standing ties with/affection for the French, and his Socialist ideologies, I’ll just BET he’d make a cozy bed with a few of our ‘missing friends’.
    Jeff, it’s no wonder Kerry doesn’t talk much about spreading democracy around the world. It’s not the system he’d be peddling.

  • Franky

    I think ABC are right. You don’t get in to “he said, she said” if one side is lying. As a media organization, you investigate and with the massive resources at hand you evaluate if the latest charges are correct or not. If Kerry tomorrow accuses Bush of being a child-molester, you run the accusation, but within the same story you also explain why it is highly doubtful it is true.
    I think the central problem the Republicans have is that the entire picture they’ve painted of Kerry as unserious, a waiverer (spelling) is falling apart when people see him in these debates. Kerry is not only able to destroy the caricature that’s been painted, but also hammer the president time and time again.
    Jesse, you’re more generous than I am. I only saw it once, but it looked like he was winking to someone.
    Michael, consensus appears to be on Paul O’Neil

  • http://www.elflife.com/ carsonfire

    “…the entire picture they’ve painted of Kerry as unserious, a waiverer (spelling) is falling apart when people see him in these debates.”
    Heh, he doesn’t dispel it by parsing almost every sentence in the first debate with “but”. He still wants to pull out of Iraq/wants to win. I know the DU types are satisfied with that, because they know the “wants to win” part is the brazen lie designed to sucker the “sheeple”.
    Still, I kind of agree with Franky. I think it was a mistake to label Kerry a “flip flopper”. Bush corrected that in the second debate by changing the label to the L word (twice!). Better to forget Kerry’s blatant dissembling, and to concentrate on his *real* politics and policy, which are all loser positions — else, why would he have to manufacture so many pretend positions to cover them up?

  • debra

    dries
    cheap shot but then you are a Republican
    I am only registeed to vote in NY

  • http://www.hfienberg.com/kesher/ Yehudit

    “President Kerry. Better get used to calling him that from now on.”
    I was worried for a minute, and then I saw the post was from McClelland.
    “Let’s not actually pretend that anyone cared about the Iraqi and Afghan people’s freedom until that seemed like to only way to sell the Americans on the war.”
    Well, it looks like you sure didn’t care. Some of us did though. And Bush mentioned the humanitarian aspects from the beginning.
    “George Bush can’t keep his temper under control. And I will say this as a woman who knew Rick Lazio lost the election when he acted like a bully in the third debate with Hillary. Woman no longer need to be assured Kerry is strong; his debate performances have shown that.”
    Don’t tell me what women think, because none of the women I know agree with you. Kerry is a creepy liar, and we all think he’s pussy-whipped. Bush didn’t come across as a bully to me, just as someone who knew the set-up was rigged and had to claim his space. I sure as hell am not going to hold it against someone to get a bit pissed when his opponent just makes shit up.
    Did you see the incredulous look on Bush’s face when Kerry was talking? Like “I can’t believe this asshole is getting away with this shit.”
    “Was anyone offended that Kerry looked around the room and said it was clear to him that no one in the room besides him, Bush and Gibson make more than $200K a year?”
    Yes. Kerry is such a typical New England blue-blood condescending jerk.

  • Franky

    A quick count of second debate shows Bush with 28 “but”‘s and Kerry with 31.
    Does that qualify Bush as a flip-flopper too?
    Yehudit, are you sure you want to begin a converation about which is the most dishonest, Bush-Cheney or Kerry-Edwards? I mean we can disagree on some things, but one of those is not which is the biggest liar. This administration beats the Clintons for lying. Just lie every goddamn time you feel. WMDs, links of Al-qeda and Saddam. And then the queen liar of them all Hughes gets invited on to score the debate. I mean jesus christ!!!!! (for the best description of Hughes lying read Tucker Carlson’s account of being screamed at by her as she denied the President used cuss words (I couldn’t care, but it’s reflective of how just lie about anything)

  • http://www.hfienberg.com/kesher/ Yehudit

    “Yehudit, are you sure you want to begin a converation about which is the most dishonest, Bush-Cheney or Kerry-Edwards?”
    Sure, fire away. Oh, you’re recycling the tired old “Bush lied about WMDs/Al Queda-Saddam” stuff. Franky baby, the new ISG report and the 9-11 commission both refuted you. Some of us who were following the news knew that already, but they both confirmed it. If that’s all you got, I won.

  • Franky

    “”Al Queda-Saddam” stuff”
    Proof, right here, right now.

  • http://www.elflife.com/ carsonfire

    Franky: A quick count of second debate shows Bush with 28 “but”‘s and Kerry with 31.
    Does that qualify Bush as a flip-flopper too?

    Franky, sorry to be blunt, but you seem to be wholly incapable of arguing actual points. By pedantically latching onto “but” as a generic, you present something that doesn’t really mean anything to rebut something I didn’t say. “But” is an essential word, but Kerry used it too often in the first debate, as I said in my last post, to parse and to present himself as supporting two sides of too many issues.
    You could, perhaps, instead argue the validity of what I said by proving that I’m wrong about his positions being conflicting. That would be a valid line of argument; your word count is not.

  • Franky

    Carsonfire,
    It was a humorous count of the word “but”. I can’t help but notice that you seem to be a little on edge these days.
    Since you’re in such a humorless mood, and seem in all likelihood will remain so for the next 23 days, the “but” Kerry used was consistently in the case of agreeing with the general policy of the President “but” wholly opposed to the implementation of the policy. That was the core of Kerry’s debate talking points for the first debate. That is not a flip-flop, “but” a criticism of the competence of this administration. I’m frankly surprised you would pretend to be so dense as to not have understood that.

  • http://www.elflife.com/ carsonfire

    Humor’s in the eye of the beholder, Franky. Your wordcount statement to me was short and humorless, and reminiscent of the bizarre tabulations in the angry DemocraticUnderground board. For my part, I’m very good at writing forcefully, and that forcefulness is often mistaken for being angry. Actually, most of your posts have amused me because they remind me of my brother’s style of arguing, which, heh, always winds up with him whimpering out because he never really has decent facts to defend his positions, only second-hand rants from his liberal friends and neighbors.
    However, I thank you for actually addressing the issue. I accept your interpretation of Kerry’s points as a fair response, although I will still disagree.

  • http://RuthCalvo Ruth

    Darlings, sorry to involve myself in a family feud of sorts, but ‘buts’ are involved and they are of the variety that are not debating points.
    If the lives of the people involving themselves in this online debate were involved, they might have more than a passing interest in whether or not we were sacrificing same in Iraq. Yes, I used ‘same’ because it is a bloodless legal term used to refer to actual things in an emotionless context.
    We are discussing real lives for unreal excuses of arguments.
    Anyone who votes to kill more innocents is guilty of murder. Prolife? At the basic level.

  • Franky

    Yeah, I just wish them damn liberal friends and neighbors of mine would give me some facts some time, and maybe, just maybe, that way I wouldn’t have to whimper so much. Oh well, onwards and upwards.