Mighty Christian of them: II

Mighty Christian of them: II

: Worse than the brawling brothers below is the behavior of the Presbyterian Church.

The Presbyterian Church is flirting with anti-Semitism. The General Assembly — the ruling gathering of the church — voted to start divesting itself of investments in Israeli companies because Israel doesn’t hug the Palestinians who send their children as bombs to murder their innocent civilians.

God’s work, eh?

Are they also divesting themselves of investments in nations that support the Palestinian murderers? Are they divesting themselves of investments in nations that support terrorism against America? Are they divesting themselves of investments in nations that support tyrannical Arab dictatorships?

The Presbyterians also opposed the building of security barriers — giving no other solution to the terrorist murders in Israel — and supported a shameful sham temple in Philadelphia whose sole purpose is to convert Jews (my sister has fought that from within the church there).

I left the Presbyterian church because of its homophobia. Now this. For shame.

An

  • MWB

    You need to distinguish the Presbyterian Church (USA) from the several other Presbyterian denominations in the U.S. Most, if not all, of them are more conservative theologically than the PCUSA (and hence won’t please you on gay issues), but to my knowledge none of them has advocated divesting Israeli interests…

  • Kat

    That temple in Philadelphia is converting the wrong group of people.

  • Mumblix Grumph

    Hmm…sounds like left-wing Berkely Behavior to me.

  • grandtaco

    Absolutely. The Palestinians need to stop complaining and get a life. Really, just because their land has been occupied for decades, homes have been bull-dozed, children killed or malnourished that is no excuse.
    I feel the same way about Native Americans too.
    Instead of committing barbaric atrocities against the innocent white settlers, why did they not negotiate for peace? Sure, the Native Americans’ land was stolen. But terrorism is Never justified.
    To those who remind us that the Palestinians are the ones who have been invaded, who are to this day being occupied and living under state-sanctioned terror – I say Pshaw. Pshaw!

  • hen

    funny stuff grandtaco. there NEVER was a “palestine”. only under Israeli occupation has there been an offer of a state and further under Israel the standard of living for these Arabs were higher then any other ME country; well that is until they started their brilliant intafadah(sp).
    quite simply if the “palestinians” didn’t behave like murderous demons from day 1 there wd be nothing to whine about.
    all the things you point to are the fault of the Arabs.
    the children are “malnourished”? well Arafat sh dip into his hundreds of millions of skimmed dollars and buy “his people” some fucking food.

  • http://www.modempool.com/nucleardann/blogspace/blog.htm Dann

    grandtaco-
    The word for which you are seeking is “conquered”. It happened to the “Palestinians” several centuries before Christ appeared.
    Jeff-
    At least they weren’t opposed to our invasion of Afghanistan like my former church was. The United Methodist Church has really turned into a lefty organization. The membership probably hasn’t changed much, but the leadership has put some pretty socialist positions into their agenda.
    Regards,

  • http://opinionpaper.blogspot.com Brett

    Dann,
    I don’t know the history of the Methodist church, but to have such a position is not inconsistent with Christianity as practiced by the apostles. The book of Acts is full of wealth redistribution and common ownership.

  • Kat

    Christianity STILL practices giving to the poor. I wrote a cheque on Sunday for Haitian relief–not to redistribute my money, but to help people in need. It’s really a simple concept.
    But yes, I agree–the church is at times too damned liberal for my liking. I think they buy into this retarded concept of an utopian world with everyone in one big communist nirvana. It sounds too much like one world under that islam crap.
    Instapundit links to this:
    http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2004_09_28.shtml#1096416641

  • http://www.modempool.com/nucleardann/blogspace/blog.htm Dann

    Brett-
    The UMC Social Principles are not based on anything that can be found in scripture. Christian charity is based on the individual willingly surrendering wealth for the specific purpose of helping those in need.
    The Social Principles state that governments are expected to create full employment and are responsible for feeding and housing the needy. These things can only be accomplished by taking, not by giving. And it are derived from the teachings Karl Marx, not Jesus Christ.
    Just as I wouldn’t want to live under an Islamist theocracy or a conservative Judeo-Christian theocracy, I wouldn’t want to live under a theocracy run according to leftist-Christian philosophies.
    Beginning with Genesis, our relationship with God has always been one of each individual chosing to accept God’s unwavering invitation with the consequences for that choice being what they are.
    Regards,

  • rivlax

    Don’t confuse the Christian Left with the Christian Right. The ones you call homophobic are not the same ones who are anti-semitic.

  • Mike G

    No, they’re not divesting themselves of investments in nations that support the Palestinian murderers, because there are no investments in such backward, preindustrialized military garrison states. Apart from oil, they don’t produce anything anyone would want, or contribute in any other way to the general wellbeing of mankind.

  • Angelos

    People waste their time on religion why?
    Has any organized religion existed for any other reason than to control the weak through fear? Is organized religion today about anything other than money?
    Bigotry, murder, and hatred, all justified with fairy tales.
    Arguing over sports has more significance than arguing over religion. At least Ruth v. Bonds is based in reality.

  • http://dmobley.blogspot.com david

    Volokh is talking about a study which shows some protestant denominations criticize mostly the U.S. and Israel for human rights violations while ignoring the worst human rights violators. More here: http://dmobley.blogspot.com/2004/09/say-whaaaaaat.html.

  • Nema

    I don’t understand why some of this is considered anti-semitic but I’m gonna make some inferences that’ll probably piss some people off:
    May 14 – At the University of California – Irvine, an anti-Israel demonstration featured the display of mock

  • Walter E. Wallis

    European American land transfers with the Indians were in the coin of the day and in accordance with the standard practice of the Indians.

  • Kat

    Yeah, Nema, and those death to Israel placards and kill Jews were just cutsie pie fun for terrorists. People who carry such signs are terrorist ass kissers–forget Jew haters. A Palestinian state or a terrorist base??

  • http://home.ioa.com/~vampire/index.html Robert

    And does the Presbyterian church also divest itself of all intrest in anyone dealing with communist china? After all, china invaded and still occupies Tibet, ( using the uranium there in their nuclear weapons program, and providing it to countries like iran ).
    In addition, chinese police have beaten to death people that were distributing bibles, and imprisoned catholic bishops into “re-education camps” where some have died.
    But, you don’t see THAT on the news every night… Or any night, for that matter.

  • grandtaco

    “And does the Presbyterian church also divest itself of all intrest in anyone dealing with communist china? After all, china invaded and still occupies Tibet”
    First of all, you are comparing the actions of China – a third world country with a dreadful recent past – with affluent, Westernized Israel.
    Second, as Juan Cole has noted, the Tibetans are citizens of China. The Chinese *want* to integrate the Tibetans, they are not bulldozing them into refugee camps and forcing them to live in abject squalor.
    Just to clarify: If you want to argue that Arafat is a terrible leader, that terrorism is counterproductive – fine. That’s an important debate.
    But how can you criticize Palestinian terrorism, without ever mentioning the fact that they are under occupation? How would you like it if your house had been stolen, you were forced to live in a tent and now the new owner who has grown rich wants to shake hands and make amends?
    Criticizing Palestinian terrorism without mentioning the occupation, is like lambasting the Rwandan government for its restrictions on democracy without putting it in the context of the genocide a few years ago.
    It’s like yelling at Mom for what a pill she has become lately, while ignoring the fact that she has cancer.
    “there NEVER was a “palestine”. only under Israeli occupation has there been an offer of a state and further under Israel the standard of living for these Arabs were higher then any other ME country”
    OMG Israel rox, I guess that makes the occupation ok then! They do it all for love, all for love. By all means, let the occupation and bull-dozings continue. I’m sure everything will turn out O.K.

  • Kat

    I’m sure the bulldozings will stop when the terrorism stops.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com David Foster

    Nema…Palestinian terrorists just fired rockets into Israel, blowing the legs off one child (who later died) and also killing another one. Israeli forces reacted with an “incursion” into the Palestinian area, which is, no doubt, even now being denounced by the campus leftists.
    What do *you* think the Israelis should have done…politely asked the terrorists not to kill any more children? Think it would work?
    What the leftists will never understand is that the Israeli response was a *moderate* one. You know what most states (including major EU nations and including the US) would do if repeatedly attacked in such a manner? They would connect artillery-locator radars directly to counterbattery artillery, and program it to directly and automatically fire on the location from which the rockets originated.
    Can you imagine the reaction if Isreal did this?

  • Roger

    Jeff,
    If you hadn’t already left the church, you’d leave because they try to convert Jews? Seems if that’s your standard you shouldn’t join any Christian church – after all, Jesus set about to convert quite a few Jews (and Gentiles, also).

  • http://www.modempool.com/nucleardann/blogspace/blog.htm Dann

    grandtaco-
    “How would you like it if your house had been stolen, you were forced to live in a tent and now the new owner who has grown rich wants to shake hands and make amends?”
    The fact is that while there were some incidents similar to what you suggest, by and large the Israelis PURCHASED those homes and apartments from the people that OWNED them. Those same Arabs took the money on Monday and on Tuesday were telling the people being asked to leave “it’s OK, we’ll get it all back when we obliterate Israel next week.”
    However, in the rest of the ME, the circumstances you descibe happened quite often….to Jews.
    Regards,

  • pragmatist

    Within days of Israel becoming an independent
    country it was invaded by it’s neighbors. Only
    2 of whom have signed ‘peace’ treaties with
    Israel.
    If the Arabs were to recognize the existence
    of Israel – and stop supporting terrorism -
    Israel would leave the West Bank.
    And don’t say I’m a right-wing Nazi.
    Israel COMPLETELY left the area it captured
    from Egypt in 1967 for a peace treaty. It
    is a verifiable fact.
    Once the Palestinians turn from terror to
    peace they will get a state.
    They ball has been in the Arab’s court for
    more than 55 years. The fact that the
    Israelis haven’t allowed themselves to be
    slaugthered should not be used against them.
    I have to say I love this line: “the
    Tibetans are citizens of China”. Did
    they get a CHOICE? Do they, along with
    any citizens of China get to VOTE? Do
    they strap bombs to themselves and murder
    Chinese children?
    Various groups and individuals such as
    the Catholic Church and Martin Luther King
    Jr. have stated that condemnation of Israel
    is anti-Semitism. Their moral leadership
    should be enough for the rest of you.

  • Nema

    David,
    Can you imagine Israel’s reaction if it had no army. If its houses were demolished, land uprooted, former homes occupied and a barrier built around its cities. If its people couldn’t go from one city to another to visit families or friends. If its children would step on mines and die. If the greatest power in the world ignored its pleas. If dozens of Security Council resolutions and General Assembly resolutions have been passed denouncing what the other side was doing and yet nothing happened. If the world’s court made up of the most prestigious legal minds in the world stated that the other side was wrong in what it was doing, but did it anyway. I wonder what Israel would do then.
    Dann you talk about how the Israeli’s rightfully bought those lands, or how they were left there because the arabs told the Palestinians to leave. And yet this wholefully rejects what happened during the nakhba when there is substantial evidence that mobs would go into Palestinian cities and commit grave violent acts. Many DID leave during the war, in hopes of getting away from the violent acts and coming back. That DOES NOT give another person’s right to come in and squat those lands. The Sinai is the same. You cannot acquire lands by conquering it. Thats where pragmatist is wrong. It left the place it captured?! What are we in the 17th century. You don’t have the right to capture another countries land to begin with. And if you don’t believe me, read resolution 242 of the Security Council.
    Until both sides realize there is only one solution; one-state, then there is no solution

  • Kat

    They left because the Arabs told them to leave and promised they could come back once the Jews were annihiliated.
    1. 630,000 Palestinian, and 820,000 Jewish, refugees were produced by the 1948 war, which was launched by Palestinians, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon against Israel.

  • pragmatist

    nema is not interested in those pesky facts.
    He has his own world view and all the facts
    in the world – or in this case the Middle
    East – won’t change his mind.
    It is as pointless to talk with him as it
    is to a creationist. Both live in similar
    make-believe worlds where the only ‘facts’
    that exist are those which they find
    comfortable.
    An example is when he claims the world court
    is “made up of the most prestigious legal
    minds in the world”. He obviously believes
    that to be true. Objectively that is
    incorrect.
    But he NEEDS to believe it true. Otherwise
    he would have to admit that he is on the
    side of immoral agressors. Since he thinks
    he is ‘faultless’ it must the others who are
    wrong.
    For all our sakes I hope his work doesn’t
    involve anything requiring objective decision
    making. That would be a danger to us all,
    himself included.

  • Kat

    {Until both sides realize there is only one solution; one-state, then there is no solution
    Posted by Nema at September 30, 2004 12:09 PM} You won’t get an argument from me there. It is the primary obligation of the government to protect Jewish lives.

  • grandtaco

    These are all good, debatable points. Having debates about them is good.
    My point is simply that the central fact on the ground – right now, at this very moment, today September 30, 2004 – is that the Palestinians are under occupation, their homes in the West Bank bulldozed and stolen to make way for fanatical settlers.
    Criticize Palestinian suicide-bombers, call them the scum of the earth? Fine.
    Call Arafat a jerk, a traitor to his own people? Fine.
    Blame it on the Arabs, say it’s all their fault? Fine.
    But you cannot talk about this issue, without first acknowledging the central reality – millions of Palestinians live under OCCUPATION right now.
    To criticize Palestinian sympathizers, without ever mentioning this root cause, is so perverse, it’s akin to criticizing Native American attacks on White settlers without mentioning white settler expansionism.
    There was nothing in Jeff’s original post about the injustice of millions living for decades under oppressive occupation by a foreign power who does not want them. There is nothing in Kat’s posts about this either.
    If only Nicole Simpson had stopped resisted OJ, he wouldn’t have to shoot her. And she had no right to do that, did she? The nerve.

  • Kat

    Bottom line: It is the unwillingness of the Arabs to negotiate, not the presence of settlements, that stalls the peace process and makes compromise impossible.
    They can’t have all of Israel. Israel has a right to self defense. Muslims will NEVER be the majority in Israel. As long as they terrorize they will suffer the consequences. Stop terrorizing is the first step. Quite simple.

  • grandtaco

    “I have to say I love this line: “the
    Tibetans are citizens of China”. Did
    they get a CHOICE? Do they, along with
    any citizens of China get to VOTE?”
    Just for the record – again you are comparing Israel’s actions with that of a brutal, totalitarian pariah nation, China. Just think about it – that is setting the bar pretty low for a supposedly advanced, democratic country.
    In addition, China’s recent history has been nightmarishly bad for Uighur, Han Chinese and Tibetan alike, not just Tibetans. They have only recently begun emerging from a hellish century.
    As bad as the situation is in Tibet, Tibetans are at least a part of China in a way the Palestinians can never be to Israel, per Kat’s post:
    “It is insane to have enemies of the Jewish people living anywhere within its boundaries. So how does Israel put a stop to the explosive Israeli Arab population growth? The same way
    one puts a stop to a growing cancer

  • Kat

    A unilateral withdrawal from settlements is a concession to terror. Israel refuses to reward terror. No one should ever do that. No concessions until the violence stops. Concessions about the settlements can be made in the context of negotiations, which can not begin unless the violence stops. Palestinians can not be a part of Israel because their main goal is to islamize Israel and kill off the Jews. Therefore, it can never happen. Israel should not be asked to commit political suicide to placate a bunch of terrorists.

  • grandtaco

    “We will stop the abuse after you stop resisting it! Scout’s honor.”

  • Kat

    Or we will stop the terrorism after the last Jew is driven into the sea. We know that terrorist muslims are terrorizing and intimidating the world into combined action against Israel; the real intention being to destroy both Israel and Lebanon, so Islam can consolidate the Middle East before launching out to “take the world for Allah”. Sacrificing the Jews is sacrificing our childrens’ futures–enslaving society to some crap cult stuck in the dark ages.

  • Nema

    “It is insane to have enemies of the Jewish people living anywhere within its boundaries. So how does Israel put a stop to the explosive Israeli Arab population growth? The same way one puts a stop to a growing cancer

  • Kat

    The muslims removed the Copts from Egypt, the Armenians from Turkey, the Christians from Lebanon, the Blacks from Darfur, the Jews in many lands, they massacred Balkan Christians under the Red Sultan, there were the East Timor massacres, there was the massacre of Hindus by Ikhtiyaruddin Mohammed Bokhtiar Khilji in India, Saddam murdered at least half a million of his own people, the Hagia Sophia, most significant church in eastern Christendom, was converted into a mosque. The Zoroastrian religion was all but eliminated in Persia. Buddhists were cleansed from Afghanistan. Christianity was wiped out in North Africa. And it keeps happening–right under your nose. You don’t need to go back to 1400–just look at the Pandits, the Blacks in Darfur, etc. etc. etc.
    Don’t you get it–they want to eliminate ALL infidels? The Jews are just a beginning.

  • grandtaco

    I keep a man locked in the basement.
    How he got there is a long story – he was there when I took custody of this apartment, he’s been there for ages – suffice it to say that it is not my fault.
    But the bottom line is, he is VERY dangerous and angry, I don’t know what he would do if I ever set him loose. And his family members, in other countries! What a bunch of nutcases, you would not BELIEVE the things they have to say about me.
    People often ask me, “well why don’t you release him? Turn him over to U.N. custody, have him supervised 24/7. What you are doing is really sick.”
    But I think I’ll just keep him locked in the basement.

  • grandtaco

    I keep a man locked in the basement.
    How he got there is a long story – he was there when I took custody of this apartment, he’s been there for ages – suffice it to say that it is not my fault.
    For the past few years he has threatened, and perpetrated, unspeakable acts of violence against me. I tried to be understanding…
    But the bottom line is, he is VERY dangerous and angry, I don’t know what he would do if I ever set him loose. And his family members, in other countries! What a bunch of nutcases, you would not BELIEVE the things they have to say about me.
    People often ask me, “well why don’t you release him? Turn him over to U.N. custody, have him supervised 24/7. What you are doing is really sick.”
    But I think I’ll just keep him locked in the basement.

  • Kat

    Did he threaten to kill you even before the occupation? You should just let him out to behead your kids, rape your wife, behead you. He’ll take back the apartment plus everything you own. Then he will be happy and you will be dead. That’s what you ask of the Jews–to go quietly into the sea and die.