Me Tarzan, You Norm

Me Tarzan, You Norm
: Norman Mailer says the real reason we went to war was to boost the ego of white American males:

The key question remains

  • Pyecraft

    …..when he found his knife. They just recently dig him up? I was so sure he’d died long ago.

  • http://www.deanesmay.com Dean Esmay

    He did. Someone just forgot to tell him.

  • Dark Avenger

    He IS the world’s expert on male chest-beating.

  • http://epersiangirl.blogspot.com persan girl

    well i think the only raeson that we went 2 war was that a wolf in sheep’s clothing (bush) and a wolf in wolf’s clothing (sadam) , each of them , wanted 2 have more power than the other!
    by the way! happy saddam’s birthday:P

  • http://epersiangirl.blogspot.com persan girl

    well i think the only raeson that we went 2 war was that a wolf in sheep’s clothing (bush) and a wolf in wolf’s clothing (sadam) , each of them , wanted 2 have more power than the other!
    by the way! happy saddam’s birthday:P

  • http://revirement.de/weblog/ vasili

    persian girl,
    please don’t call them sheep. sheep are cute, peaceful and i really like them. bush and saddam are – well, you know what.
    jeff,
    of course mailer is wrong. like everyone who’s not of your opinion (i.e. everyone who doesn’t follow cheetah junior word by word), he’s only a poor idiot. now go on, explain the world to us. ;-)

  • http://revirement.de/weblog/ vasili

    note to myself: never post before having at least one cup of coffee. it’s quite early here in old europe. to everyone who’s trying to find the sheep in persian girl’s comment: forget about that.

  • Puce

    I hope Bush puppet sheep entrails eat.

  • Pyecraft

    Cheetahs, wolves and sheep. Mailer, Hemmingway and Puce. Geesh, gonna need extra coffee today.

  • Jack Tanner

    Since when is the Catholic church one of the ‘classic bastions of the erstwhile American faith’. In a secular country where less that a third of the citizens are any sort of Catholics it seems like Mr. Mailer’s just making shit up to appeal to idiots like pee-girl and Vasili. but since they hate America already why bother?

  • Richard Webster

    Geez, I thought something as provocative as what Mailer has written would have evoked more stirring responses.
    Oscar Wilde said something to the effect that the only thing worse than people saying bad things about you is people saying nothing at all about you. Mailer can’t produce anything worth commenting on so he criticizes … badly … obtusely. Jack Tanner’s got his number.
    As far as Bush being a wolf in sheep’s clothing, don’t think someone’s a sheep because he’s not shouting and waving his arms. Bush is a politician and therefore motivated by all that motivates a politician. Some of it benefits us, some does not. This “war” benefited almost everyone on the planet. In the adult world, the best solution to a bad situation is not always the one that makes everyone the happiest.
    Please Jeff/Vasili, we don’t want to know any more of your feelings about domesticated animals. Persian Girl & Vasili, you should read more things you disagree with (besides my little blurb here), the thoughts such things provoke are so much more rewarding than listening to the same old point of view you think you agree with. Just mechanically repeating the tripe and dribble your high school teachers and college professors foisted on you, makes you boring.

  • Soren Ryherd

    Anyone who thinks the war is helping the US economy, as the quote claims, isn’t out there in the trenches of business. I’ve had at least five (5!) decent business-to-business deals dry up in the last 4-5 months specifically because those companies were regarding a wait and see attitude over the war.
    Of course my cynical boss thinks that those companies are just using the war as an excuse to cut back on spending. He may be right.

  • http://revirement.de/weblog/ vasili

    richard,
    what makes you think i read only things i agree with? i’m far from that. but “just mechanically repeating the tripe and dribble” warmongers and born-again fundamentalists “foisted” on me, would make me go crazy. i prefer using my own brain. and if some of my points of view might correlate with what others thought out, i don’t have a problem with it. i like jeff’s humour, i like his intellect, but i dislike his habit to regard different opinions as ridiculous. that’s what i tried to express. if you didn’t get it, blame on my command of your language, not on my former teachers or professors.

  • Richard Webster

    Vasaili –
    I stand corrected! You obviously read what I wrote. There’s an interesting contrast going on here. When I mentioned teachers and professors, I meant what in America some would call Liberals and apologists. But the reference for you held a completely different meaning. Are you Russian?
    Did you read all of Mailer’s opinion piece? He is convinced that white males are responsible for all the world’s woes. A little simplistic at best wouldn’t you say? A bit like Don Quixote after Sancho has abandoned him, no? Gotta run or I’d write more.

  • Richard Webster

    Vasaili –
    I stand corrected! You obviously read what I wrote. There’s an interesting contrast going on here. When I mentioned teachers and professors, I meant what in America some would call Liberals and apologists. But the reference for you held a completely different meaning. Are you Russian?
    Did you read all of Mailer’s opinion piece? He is convinced that white males are responsible for all the world’s woes. A little simplistic at best wouldn’t you say? A bit like Don Quixote after Sancho has abandoned him, no? Gotta run or I’d write more.

  • http://revirement.de/weblog/ vasili

    richard,
    sorry i didn’t get that thing about teachers and professors. since i live in old europe, i’m not used to some specific american idioms.
    i read the whole article, yes. and i agree with you that many things this guy said aren’t worth discussing. but jeff cited the part of the article that IS worth discussing: “we went to war, i could say, because we very much needed a war. the u.s. economy was sinking, the market was gloomy and down, and some classic bastions of the erstwhile american faith (corporate integrity, the fbi, and the catholic church, to cite but three) had each suffered a separate and grievous loss of face. since our administration was probably not ready to solve any one of the serious problems before it, it was natural to feel the impulse to move into larger ventures, thrusts into the empyrean-war!”
    remember the british war against argentina, where they ran in for an useless island with some tens of settlers on it? argentina was then ruled by a dictator, while britain was ruled by maggie thatcher, who then seemed to have failed in almost everything she did. public opinion was as to send her to hell and elections were coming closer. so she took her country to war and boosted herself to never-reached heights in the polls, which made the way for her re-election.
    i understand that britain in the eighties and the u.s. nowadays are quite different. britain never had to suffer the shock of 9/11, britain never had a president like bush 43. but what’s similar is the fact, that a war boosted the popularity of those who declared it and made the people forget about the problems of their country.
    mailer’s talking lots of shit, no doubt. but if someone is generally of jeff’s opinion, he’s analyzing his texts sentence by sentence. he comments, he agrees, he disagrees, he adds. if jeff doesn’t like someone’s opinion, he’s got only one childish comment on that – even if there are some good points in it. and the above cited is definitely something to discuss. i remember it was you who told us, that policians always think of their own interests. you can’t believe that bush 43 is different.
    regards,
    vasili
    p.s.: i’m not russian. but keep on searching among the weasels. ;-)

  • http://revirement.de/weblog/ vasili

    jack,
    thanks for your kind words. unfortunately, i don’t fit your image of an idiot that hates america. during the last months i learned that it’s a sad obesession of your marvellous people to regard everybody who’s questioning your government’s decisions as anti-american. i can only speak for myself, but for me, that’s not true. in fact, i’m critizing that bunch in the white house because i think they’re a greater threat to your freedom than bin laden or hussein ever could have been. it’s my way of friendship. i know, i know: you think you don’t need friends like that, but that doesn’t change my feelings for america.
    sorry, jack. better luck next time…

  • Jack Tanner

    Vasili – pardon my intemperate expression but when you write
    ‘in fact, i’m critizing that bunch in the white house because i think they’re a greater threat to your freedom than bin laden or hussein ever could have been.’ I think either I was right the first time or you seriously don’t understand much about America. Except to the leftists and anti-Americans in America the war on terror isn’t about blood for oil or imperialism or whatever bullshit Norman Mailer and the rest of the hate America left says it is. It’s about national security and the preservation of the American way of life. If you look at the 2004 national elections in the US you’ll see the Democrats say that we have a bad economy and that we’re having our civil rights rescinded. You’ll see the GOP saying that we’re in a protracted struggle in the war on terror. We’ll see who wins.

  • Richard Webster

    Vasili – That makes you French! Among the reasons for my guess are that you wouldn’t come out and say it (You are pre-supposing a great amount of anti-French sentiment.) and you criticized the British (Old habits die hard.)
    The comparison of the Brits in the Falklands and the US & Britain in Iraq doesn’t quite work and not because the Eighties were so different. When the Argentinians rolled up onto the beaches and planted the their flag insisting the world now recognize the islands as the Islas Malvinas, they did so in full view of several hundred British citizens who had been born there. Those people called for help from their government and received it, despite the fact the were so far away living like lunatics on a scattering of barren rocks. Sovereignty is sovereignty.
    The US and Britain entered Iraq not to regain control of their citizen’s homes. But to put an end to an unacceptable situation. Iraq was the private estate of a brutal despot who had used terror to turn his country into a weapons bazaar and terrorist toll road. Do you think the only thing Saddam sold was oil? I could write a lot more on this subject, but please accept that I don’t buy the “Blood for Oil” story nor that the leaders of France and Russia locked down the General Assembly because of their deference to the rule of law. THere’s a hell of a lot more going on here.
    And as far as Mailer’s railing against the white male and this crap about needing a war to jump start the American economy … Nuts. I work in Manhattan, where’s the jump start? Mailer still thinks it 1965. Norm, the world has changed, but you wouldn’t see that from where you sit as a fat cat who has gained an income far outstripping the rest of us from that very economy and nation you vilify so coarsely, you white male you!

  • http://revirement.de/weblog/ vasili

    jack,
    I think either I was right the first time or you seriously don’t understand much about America. Except to the leftists and anti-Americans in America the war on terror isn’t about blood for oil or imperialism or whatever bullshit Norman Mailer and the rest of the hate America left says it is.
    i didn’t say anything about war for oil, nor did i mention imperialism, even if i can’t agree that this isn’t one of the reasons. i said that i think your current administration poses a threat. i guess bush believes to do what god wants him to do. i guess you believe that terrorists will stay away if your government knows what books you read or can hold suspects in detention whenever and whereever it likes to. maybe you even think that bringing democracy on some bomb’s back will make the world a safer place (is there “positive” imperialism?). someone once said: “the opposite of good isn’t bad, but good-willing”. think about it.
    It’s about national security and the preservation of the American way of life. If you look at the 2004 national elections in the US you’ll see the Democrats say that we have a bad economy and that we’re having our civil rights rescinded. You’ll see the GOP saying that we’re in a protracted struggle in the war on terror. We’ll see who wins.
    i can very well imagine who will win. tell the people you’re at war – they’ll forget about economy or their other problems. that’s an old game that still works.

  • Jack Tanner

    ‘i guess you believe that terrorists will stay away if your government knows what books you read or can hold suspects in detention whenever and whereever it likes to.’
    I believe terrorists will stay back if they’re dead or in prison or think that they will be in the very near future. I also have a lot more faith in the American public than I think you do. If the American public is more worried about the economy and civil liberties than national security they’ll put Bush out on his ass just like they did his father.

  • http://revirement.de/weblog/ vasili

    richard,
    neither french nor russian. try again, there’s not much left, is it? further, i wasn’t critizing the british, but maggie thatcher. but i’m afraid you won’t get the difference.
    as i wrote before, there are differences between britain’s falklands adventure and the united states’ war against iraq. i referred to the consequences of going to war, which are – as i understand it – that the people forget about their other problems. bush failed on the economy, he failed on national security, he failed on building a safer world. i read about a u.s. report on terrorism yesterday which claimed that the number of kills out of terrorist acts has decreased since the “war on terror” started. in 2001, there were about 3,200 people killed, in 2002 ‘only’ about 700. looks impressive, doesn’t it? but if you noticed the fact that among those 3,200 killings in 2001, there were the poor 2,800 of 9/11, it’s no success, but an increasing number of victims to terrorism.
    furthermore, i don’t believe that life in the u.s. is any safer today. since i live some thousand miles away, i can only talk about reports in the press, but isn’t it true that your department of homeland security can arrest people and hold them in detention without any reason? isn’t it true that your government tries to watch every step of their citizens? isn’t it true that people are boycotted for saying what they think? isn’t it true that there are “no-flight”-lists? isn’t it true that arab-americans are suspects by origin?
    and don’t think i regard france and russia as selfless heroes that tried to save the world. i do know that there’s a lot more. but since they were the only ones to prevent the justification of an aggression by the security council, i appreciate their acts. if saddam hussein had had signed a treaty on saving the environment, that wouldn’t have made it a terrorist act, would it? sometimes actions are good, even if the intentions behind are bad.
    and the last thing i will say on mailer: he didn’t write that the war should boost the economy – he wrote that the war should cover the economic problems. that’s a small but important difference, i think.

  • Catherine

    Any suggestions on how we change things Vasili? I notice your type never have constructive ideas on how to remedy things.
    furthermore, i don’t believe that life in
    the u.s. is any safer today.
    Maybe not. I think my companies building is. Every car that goes in under our building is searched under over and inside for explosives. That never happened before 9/11 and no one gets inside the building with out ID. It’s a big country, with 50 states, and there has been an erosion in security, intelligence gathering etc. since 1975. It takes a lot to become safer, but to do so without giving up individual freedom is difficult and I think it will take a while before we get it right.
    since i live some thousand miles away, i
    can only talk about reports in the press,
    So really, you have no clue. Unbiased European press? The kind that makes Europeans ask me such well informed questions like “how does it feel to live in a war zone?” and “how many guns do you own? You know you can’t have a gun in ____ right?” and “You cook?” “You are all too religious.” Yeah, well informed, know us like a book.
    but isn’t it true that your department of
    homeland security can arrest people and hold
    them in detention without any reason?
    It’s illegals with fake or expired visas and then they are deported. It is illegal for them to be here. It’s not for lack of reason. We do have lots and lots of civil liberties lawyers all over this. If it’s one thing we have in this country, it’s lawyers. One, for example, did help the bomber from the 1993 WTC bombing messenger information, but most are good, keeping things on the up and up as much as possible.
    isn’t it true that your government tries to
    watch every step of their citizens?
    No. Rather impossible actually. It’s not the X-Files here buddy. There will always be Hoovers and Ashcroft types who try to take away our civil liberties (on the left and right), but you see, we take those things seriously and will fight them. The patriot acts won’t make it through the Supreme Court.
    isn’t it true that people are boycotted for
    saying what they think?
    Sometimes, it’s called free speech and it’s called disagreeing with someone or something. Maybe I decide not to go see a Susan Sarandan movie because the sight of her makes me think of what an idiot she is, it’s not worth the $10 to me. However, she is still free to say things that are stupid. I just don’t support her movies. How is that wrong?
    isn’t it true that there are “no-flight”-
    lists? isn’t it true that arab-americans are
    suspects by origin?
    After 9/11 everyone wanted to know HOW this could have happened. We knew who these guys were, but no one else did. Legally, they couldn’t do anything about it. Now, there is more information sharing. Apparently there are a list of names of terrorist suspects who are wanted by the FBI and they are given to the airlines. Unfortunately, a few people with similar names were prevented from getting on flights and now they are suing.
    What is suspects by origin? If they are American, they are protected by the constitution. If they are here illegally, they are not.
    You’re concern for my well being is touching, but you should start with civil liberties in the EU. I know with your ilk it is popular to pretend and name call by throwing the word fascist around (I have read some of the lefty Euro blogs who prefer to point fingers at the US and ignore the goings on in their own countries), but we are still more free by far than you. Sorry, it’s just true. What makes you think your countries don’t have the same flight lists? How many people are detained for illegally crossing your borders? What are the French and British doing with all of those people along the Chunnell? I recall a few people getting jail time for writing a book the French government didn’t like last year. I guess I can look into all of the crap that goes on in the French/Arab or German/Turkish ghetto, or in Chechnya, but who has the time?
    Actually, when you look at “acts” not “deaths” the number of terror attacks declined sharply last year due to increased international cooperation and resolve. Seven countries – Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Syria, and Sudan – were again listed as state sponsors of terrorism, though Iraq may soon come off the list. The State Department says there were 199 terrorist attacks last year, a 44 percent drop from 2001 and the lowest figure in more than 30 years. http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=C9E8FBBB-AE07-49CB-B5FA4F78C43BD848

  • Catherine

    And there is no economic boost. This isn’t WW2. The country isn’t being put to work for the war machine.
    Geez…think a little bit.

  • Richard Webster

    Well, Vasi, old boy … if it was meant to make us forget about the economy, don’t ya think it shoud have lasted a whole lot longer? You’re right everything the American Republican administrations do is wrong. I was up for a freindly discussion of differences, but it looks like you’re just spoiling for a fight!
    Let me see what could possibly be the difference between the population of Britain and a scrawny old broad named Maggie? I don’t know. You got me there. You’re way too smart for me.
    American Politicians = evil, European Politicians = good. That’s about right isn’t it, Vasili? The French and Russians selfless? What the hell are you drinking?
    You have really bought into the idea that all our civil liberties have been thrown in the trash. That all these Republican federal judges are just drooling over the prospect of suspending Habeas Corpus so they can throw innocent people into deep dark holes. Do you think your government does absolutely no monitoring of web activity, cell phones or political pamphlet distribution? Wake up! Grow up! I don’t care where the hell you’re from, pal!
    Come over here and live for a while, you’ll realize that Europe is just some place they store old statues. We have more freedoms and opportunities than anyone else in the world, 9/11 hasn’t changed everyday life for 99% of us.
    The American Economy was on a downturn a year before Clinton left office. The complacency that the sway of liberals had lulled us into caused the mass murder of September 11, 2001. That sent the economy down the tubes. The Muslim Madmen that committed the atrocities of 9/11 did so not because of Israel, not because of American support of Israel or oppressive Arab regimes, but because we represent the West (America, Europe and Japan) to them. The West, that Non-Muslim messy quagmire of homosexuals, empowered women and decadent pleasures. Allah No Like! So BOOM!
    Now if you had a huge country and had to suddenly start watching whose coming and going because you had just been attacked by a group of rabid Icelanders, would you put travel restrictions on people from Tierra del Fuego? Again, as with Saddam, sometimes the best answer to a bad problem is the answer the doesn’t you the happiest. Do you really believe we happily went to war? No, it was the only way to resolve the situation. Saddam wasn’t going anywhere. He was laughing at the West, those ‘rule-by-committee fools.’ He was encouraging terrorism both materially and morally.
    War is the tool of last resort. It is a harsh pricy efficient tool, but only a tool. We used it well, now it’s back on the shelf. Saddam had confounded and defied the mandates of the Security Council by throwing the inspectors out in the late ninties and by using the oil for food monet to buy weapons. He had also turned Iraq into a terrorist toll road and weapons bazaar. Blix would never had gotten back into Iraq if it hadn’t been for the US, but once he was in there Saddam made it plain that he was going to play the same old games. Big mistake. The stakes have changed since the 11th of September. I work in Manhattan, I see what being half serious gets you. Playtime’s over!

  • http://revirement.de/weblog/ vasili

    Any suggestions on how we change things Vasili? I notice your type never have constructive ideas on how to remedy things.
    i have expressed my ideas on some other occasions. excuse me, but i don’t like to repeat them all the time. i made clear what could have helped to prevent the world from thinking of the u.s. as the biggest threat to peace: partnership.
    Maybe not. I think my companies building is. Every car that goes in under our building is searched under over and inside for explosives. That never happened before 9/11 and no one gets inside the building with out ID. It

  • http://revirement.de/weblog/ vasili

    Well, Vasi, old boy … if it was meant to make us forget about the economy, don’t ya think it shoud have lasted a whole lot longer? You’re right everything the American Republican administrations do is wrong. I was up for a freindly discussion of differences, but it looks like you’re just spoiling for a fight!
    i’m far from that, richard. calm down, start reading what’s written, don’t daydream.
    American Politicians = evil, European Politicians = good. That’s about right isn’t it, Vasili? The French and Russians selfless? What the hell are you drinking?
    again: start READING. or is it, that “and don’t think that i regard..” would have been the correct way to say it? if yes, pardon my poor command of your language.